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No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

pnas.org

121–130 of 246 posts

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#121
post #37

Wow. As a former social scientist with an axe to grind this hits hard. I like to provide that HN community with some context as to what this means. There are some 300 “research” departments in each of the major social sciences: psychology, sociology, economics and anthropology. If you believe what they say, about half of their mission is teaching and the other half is research. That’s a lot, tens of billions of dolla…

> This meta-analytic finding turns on the authors’ method for measuring publication bias. Because I accept that, I must believe that this entire body of research, probably the signal behavioral economics work, is essentially worthless! I strongly disagree with this statement, even as someone who believes “nudge” effects are wildly overblown. It means “these studies failed to find evidence” - NOT that there is nothing…

I defend and elucidate. Worthlessness I would define here relative to the amounts of public and of policy attention the nudge findings have received vs net value add modified by these results.

Perhaps due to the PR efforts of leading researchers, it was much more than “set defaults intelligently.” The interpretations were more like: we can use social science to shape peoples’ behavior at the margins. Further these marginal changes would cumulate to substantive and lasting societal improvement.

On reflection, it seems to me that the value of this paper stems from its attempt to measure or quantify publication bias. In this case, the bias was positive in the direction of with studies confirming nudge effects.

Taking that a step further implies that the actual net nudge effects across published and unpublished studies were statistically and therefore substantively insignificant. Hence the use of the term worthless, i.e. non-findings.

To say that it is costless to implement a nudge scheme in the behavioral economics sense is simply untrue. In the retirement case it required a lengthy ethical and legal debate; some study and political argument as to the best outcome, which is in part a redistributive question, hard costs associated with revision or development of messages and other materials, etc.

Worse I believe is the damage done from attention and action predicated on now seemingly faulty social science. What could’ve been done instead and what will happen in the next time a social scientist claims an ‘easy’ way to make things better are costs.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#122
The issue with this kind of meta analysis is that, as the author, you get to decide what the groupings are. No two studies will be identical, so you can invent bucketing strategies until you find that some buckets have the results you want and focus on those.

In addition, they don't seem to have shown that the technique they're applying actually works for modelling the distributions that they're analyzing.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#123
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's pretty close to saying it doesn't work. No it's really not. To say things a different way, I don't think this study will change anything for people actually doing choice architecture in applied settings. They have results that speak for themselves.

> results that speak for themselves. This is exactly how a midwife explained to me why she uses magic crystals. She told me that there's science, and there's results, and that she's seen the crystals work.

I mean, yeah, if she has solid RCT data on thousands to millions of childbirths and has found a statistically significant impact from using the magic crystals, I would support their use. A/B as well as scientific research uses the same basis.

The issue is that in fact the midwife will not have such data. The comparison being made is that A/B testing, if run competently, is pretty close to scientific research, in particular for research related to nudging.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#124
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Google is using the search bar as a pretense for paying Apple for something else.

Suggesting that there is a corporate or government conspiracy without actually saying what it might actually be is the worst type of conspiracy.

That's not a conspiracy. When two companies, or countries, or individuals have business dealings on many different levels, a lot of things can be negotiated at the same time.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the example you cited I don't think that's a nudge? Or is it? I ask because I am sure that changing defaults DEFINITELY works, especially if the user does not have a strong existing preference. You're not really changing user behaviour most of the time, you're changing the outcome of what they're trying to do, which is to reduce their cognitive load by ignoring as much as they possibly can.

This seems to be the standard response to anything that seeks to debunk nudge. Any time you say ‘This example of a nudge doesn’t work / isn’t replicable / isn’t actually socially helpful’ someone will say ‘Ah but that’s not really nudge tactics.’

No true Scotsman.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have several reasons not to immediately take it as definitive. The one that you expressed is that it "seems so obvious to you that you become suspicious." I'm just taking you at your word.

The idea that we should always be convinced by evidence regardless of context is a vast overgeneralization, impossible ("the evidence" overall rarely points only one way, even if the latest chunk of new evidence does), and in contradiction with Bayesian epistemology.

My problem isn't that I think people should be credulous of everything, it's that I don't think "it's just obvious" is a proper counter to experiments that show nothing. If the effect is so obvious, it should be obvious how to design an experiment that would show it.

I don't even know what you're defending here other than believing your first impulse above any subsequent evidence. Nobody is preventing anyone from proving an effect, in fact they poured money into the attempt.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#128
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> results that speak for themselves. This is exactly how a midwife explained to me why she uses magic crystals. She told me that there's science, and there's results, and that she's seen the crystals work.

I mean, yeah, if she has solid RCT data on thousands to millions of childbirths and has found a statistically significant impact from using the magic crystals, I would support their use. A/B as well as scientific research uses the same basis. The issue is that in fact the midwife will not have such data. The comparison being made is that A/B testing, if run competently, is pretty close to scientific research, in part…

But if run rigorously, A/B testing is identical to scientific research, and the scientific research fails to show an effect.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#129
post #37

Wow. As a former social scientist with an axe to grind this hits hard. I like to provide that HN community with some context as to what this means. There are some 300 “research” departments in each of the major social sciences: psychology, sociology, economics and anthropology. If you believe what they say, about half of their mission is teaching and the other half is research. That’s a lot, tens of billions of dolla…

> Thus, all that effort has not only been wasted but the credibility of social science in general is damaged. I don't think that's entirely true If anything this just highlights how complex behavioural science really is, as they're dealing with surprisingly complex humans and their surprisingly complex lives. Behavioural science is a young field.

"Behavioural science is a young field." As was chemistry up until, say, Robert Boyle.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#130
post #83

Reading this, I don't get how you can take all "nudging" and declare "No evidence". Surely "nudging" encompasses a whole range of different actual actions. Some nudges work, some don't. You can't just average across all of them. I'm probably totally misunderstanding, but it sounds similar to saying "there is no evidence for medicine" because you've averaged all the papers describing medical interventions that work an…

There are a number of posts that address this issue, as well as issues raised by responses to this post. I posted somewhere "no true Scotsman"--I'm not claiming my post was enlightening in itself, but the post I was responded to (and the entire thread) was, IMO, enlightening.

As for averaging, yes, you can: if a nudge is ineffective, then its result will be random, and a bunch of ineffective nudges will average zero effectiveness. The effective nudges will then push the overall average above zero. We don't see that. (The same would be true for medical interventions, unless some cause harm.)

As for being able to try lots of them: in some circumstances, maybe. But when a government is trying to nudge people towards some desired behavior (vaccination, say, to take a random example), they don't try sending out a bunch to different groups of people, then polling each of those groups to see which groups--and therefore which nudges--moved. And it's not always practical, anyway (and the vaccination example is a case where it's almost certainly not practical).

See also threads that mention A/B testing.

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