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No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

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Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the example you cited I don't think that's a nudge? Or is it? I ask because I am sure that changing defaults DEFINITELY works, especially if the user does not have a strong existing preference. You're not really changing user behaviour most of the time, you're changing the outcome of what they're trying to do, which is to reduce their cognitive load by ignoring as much as they possibly can.

Some other poster posted that they must have a pretty specific definition of nudge, because it defies credulity that defaults don’t change outcome if only because half the time I don’t read the defaults or know where to find them. I mean I just found out two weeks ago you could change the hacker news banner color. Are you telling me I’m in a statistically insignia can’t minority of hacker news users? Also how many se…

> Some other poster posted that they must have a pretty specific definition of nudge, because it defies credulity that defaults don’t change outcome if only because half the time I don’t read the defaults or know where to find them.

My pet theory is, these results hinge on, “does it scale?”

Like, yes, you can do nudges and see behavioral changes. But what about when everyone is doing it constantly? Then people will get fatigued and form countermeasures.

Imagine this dynamic in another context:

“Guys, guys check this out, people are guaranteed to buy your product if you show arguments for it to random people!”

But, oops, centuries of marketing later, advertising isn’t automatically effective enough to cover its costs, people don’t automatically believe the ads.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#112
post #37

Wow. As a former social scientist with an axe to grind this hits hard. I like to provide that HN community with some context as to what this means. There are some 300 “research” departments in each of the major social sciences: psychology, sociology, economics and anthropology. If you believe what they say, about half of their mission is teaching and the other half is research. That’s a lot, tens of billions of dolla…

In the example you cited I don't think that's a nudge? Or is it? I ask because I am sure that changing defaults DEFINITELY works, especially if the user does not have a strong existing preference. You're not really changing user behaviour most of the time, you're changing the outcome of what they're trying to do, which is to reduce their cognitive load by ignoring as much as they possibly can.

This seems to be the standard response to anything that seeks to debunk nudge. Any time you say ‘This example of a nudge doesn’t work / isn’t replicable / isn’t actually socially helpful’ someone will say ‘Ah but that’s not really nudge tactics.’

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a UI designer, and my experience of implementing 'nudges' is that sometimes they work, and sometimes they don't. The reality is that the way people make decisions is stupidly complex, because people have stupidly complex lives. Some tweak will work great for one project, and do nothing on the next one. It's hard to even say if it was the nudge that worked the first time. I really view nudge theory as one of many…

I'd love to read more about this. Do you have examples?

I was working on a fintech project (gonna be vague as it's not yet released).

The legal team told us we couldn't use default choices anywhere, as it could count as giving financial advice. Fair enough. So we designed the onboarding, and there was this choice the user had to make before we could create their account.

During testing, we found people were getting really stuck on this choice, to the point of giving up. The choice actually had quite low impact, but it was really technical - a lot of people just didn't understand it. Which makes sense our users weren't financial experts, which was our target user. This choice was a new concept for the market, so we couldn't relate it to other products they might know. The options inside also had quite a lot of detail when you started digging into them, detail we had to provide if somebody went looking for it. Our testers would hit this choice, get stuck, feel the urge to research this decision, get overwhelmed, give up.

We spent so long trying to reframe this choice, explaining it better in a nice succinct way, we even tried to get this feature removed entirely - but nothing stuck.

Eventually after lots of discussion with legal we were allowed to have a 'base' choice, which the user could optionally change. We tested the new design, and it made a significant difference in conversion rates.

Huzzar for nudge theory! Right? Well, maybe. I think it's a bit more complicated.

- The new design was faster. There was less screens with simpler choices. It went from a 'pick one of 5' to a 'heres the default, would you like to change it?'. Was it just the speed that made a difference?

- The user was not a financial expert, and the company behind the product was. In some sense was the user just thinking 'these guys probably know more than me I'll leave it at that'. Imagine trying to implement this exact change on something the user is an expert in - say like your meal choice in an airplane. I imagine most people would think "How rude choosing for me! I'm an expert in what I feel like eating I want to see all the options".

- It had less of a cognitive load. Like the whole onboarding flow was already really complicated, just reducing the overall mental strain to make an account may have just improved the whole experience. E.g. if we had removed decisions earlier in the flow, would this one still have been as big of an issue? We never had time to test it, so I can't say for sure.

- Lack of confusion == confidence. For the users who didn't look at the options and took the default, did they just feel more in control and confident because they weren't exposed with unfamiliar terms and choices? They never experienced the urge to research.

Like at the surface level this new design worked great, so job done. But it's hard to say definitively it was because of nudge theory. I don't think you can really blindly say "oh yeah defaults == always good" and slap them on every problem - which is why the design-test-iterate loop is so important.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#114
So many hot takes about a paper that says,

> A newly proposed bias correction technique, robust Bayesian metaanalysis (RoBMA) (6), avoids an all-or-none debate over whether or not publication bias is “severe.”

Absence of evidence doesn't mean it's not true. It doesn't even imply it.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to read more about this. Do you have examples?

I was working on a fintech project (gonna be vague as it's not yet released). The legal team told us we couldn't use default choices anywhere, as it could count as giving financial advice. Fair enough. So we designed the onboarding, and there was this choice the user had to make before we could create their account. During testing, we found people were getting really stuck on this choice, to the point of giving up. T…

Very interesting. One question:

> The new design was faster. There was less screens with simpler choices. It went from a 'pick one of 5' to a 'heres the default, would you like to change it?'. Was it just the speed that made a difference?

If you're just going from "pick one of 5" to "pick one of 5 but there's a default", I wouldn't expect one or the other to be "faster". Was the new design more different than that?

As for the rest, I think the beneficial features of the design are predicted by nudge theory. "Providing a credible default reduces cognitive load and confusion on the path to a decision, as the user can just trust the defaults have been set up reasonably" has always been the theory for why nudges work.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#116
post #37

Wow. As a former social scientist with an axe to grind this hits hard. I like to provide that HN community with some context as to what this means. There are some 300 “research” departments in each of the major social sciences: psychology, sociology, economics and anthropology. If you believe what they say, about half of their mission is teaching and the other half is research. That’s a lot, tens of billions of dolla…

Hah. Reform academia. Good one. When people have tenure, they'll be there teaching their version of this stuff for a long time and it's all but impossible to reform them without shutting down the departments.

In many schools, these social science departments are a favorite for the weaker students who don't really do so well with math. They're usually filled with athletes. They love to absorb pop psych results like Amy Cuddy's Power Pose and so they don't want to listen to anyone question their results with lots of meta analysis. They want some basic ideas from class in between lots of time on the playing field.

I'm afraid that their demands will far outweigh any desire to force the fields to search for absolute truth.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#117
post #37

Wow. As a former social scientist with an axe to grind this hits hard. I like to provide that HN community with some context as to what this means. There are some 300 “research” departments in each of the major social sciences: psychology, sociology, economics and anthropology. If you believe what they say, about half of their mission is teaching and the other half is research. That’s a lot, tens of billions of dolla…

> This meta-analytic finding turns on the authors’ method for measuring publication bias. Because I accept that, I must believe that this entire body of research, probably the signal behavioral economics work, is essentially worthless!

I strongly disagree with this statement, even as someone who believes “nudge” effects are wildly overblown.

It means “these studies failed to find evidence” - NOT that there is nothing to find.

The distinction is important because, as it turns out, the policies that the research influenced did work, in many cases. 401k contributions did go up, in many cases. More people became organ donors. More Europeans got stronger privacy protections.

“The power of defaults” is such a cliche because, in many cases, it works.

The problem with these studies is overstating the effect - not spewing worthless BS.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#118
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the example you cited I don't think that's a nudge? Or is it? I ask because I am sure that changing defaults DEFINITELY works, especially if the user does not have a strong existing preference. You're not really changing user behaviour most of the time, you're changing the outcome of what they're trying to do, which is to reduce their cognitive load by ignoring as much as they possibly can.

401k is a good example, I have had it for my whole career but if there was a form at any point asking me how much of my pay I want to contribute I would have said 0 because I prefer cash at hand than cash some day and all the b.s. health insurance is already taking a lot. But 401k doesn't bother me enough to change the default so I leave it be as some kind of rainy day fund. I didn't like paying the penalty to withdr…

If you’re worried about beating inflation, have a long time horizon, and don’t mind some risk you might looking into investing in total market index funds. An index fund for the S&P 500 has averaged ~10% returns when looking back 30 years [1].

If you’re just concerned about inflation, don’t like risk, and don’t mind locking you money up for a little bit Treasury Inflation Protected Securities [2] are also a thing. Their returns are tied to the Fed’s measurement of inflation (CPI).

1: https://www.fool.com/investing/how-to-invest/index-funds/ave...

2: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tips.asp

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#119
post #37

Wow. As a former social scientist with an axe to grind this hits hard. I like to provide that HN community with some context as to what this means. There are some 300 “research” departments in each of the major social sciences: psychology, sociology, economics and anthropology. If you believe what they say, about half of their mission is teaching and the other half is research. That’s a lot, tens of billions of dolla…

> This meta-analytic finding turns on the authors’ method for measuring publication bias. Because I accept that, I must believe that this entire body of research, probably the signal behavioral economics work, is essentially worthless! I strongly disagree with this statement, even as someone who believes “nudge” effects are wildly overblown. It means “these studies failed to find evidence” - NOT that there is nothing…

Changing the defaults is not the same as nudging. There is a logical error in your thinking here.

Re: No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias

#120
post #37

Wow. As a former social scientist with an axe to grind this hits hard. I like to provide that HN community with some context as to what this means. There are some 300 “research” departments in each of the major social sciences: psychology, sociology, economics and anthropology. If you believe what they say, about half of their mission is teaching and the other half is research. That’s a lot, tens of billions of dolla…

> This meta-analytic finding turns on the authors’ method for measuring publication bias. Because I accept that, I must believe that this entire body of research, probably the signal behavioral economics work, is essentially worthless! I strongly disagree with this statement, even as someone who believes “nudge” effects are wildly overblown. It means “these studies failed to find evidence” - NOT that there is nothing…

People born in Germany speak German.

That we need to “create” the idea of a “nudge effect” when it’s clear people take on commonly encountered social behaviors is bizarre.

Cognitive experience is a for loop with memory; for time spent in situation X, memory forms at rate Y. Social science solved.

Social science derives all it’s conclusions by studying the same old physical world as physical science. It’s restatement of science customized to cultural tradition. It’s cultural tradition to over hype our specialness selling books and big ideas, when the math is the same everywhere. Creating cultural objects of obvious math is a commodity now.

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