Totally off topic but given the headline I can’t not post this https://youtu.be/HrcbCW4y9Dw
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Baking bread with the Romans part III – the panis quadratus strikes back (2018)
11–20 of 33 posts
Re: Baking bread with the Romans part III – the panis quadratus strikes back (2018)
#12Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce, so it long preceded the arrival of the tomato.
> Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce No, it doesn't. > so it long preceded the arrival of the tomato. It did, but ketchups before tomato weren't necessarily fruit based. The original British version (and thus, the first American version, from which the other pre-tomato version derived) was mushroom based. Fruit, nut, egg, and bivalve-based versions all existed. (And the historical origin is in Asian fermen…
Is it Asian? I'd assumed—with no real support whatsoever—that it was descended from Roman garum, a fermented fish sauce that's a lot closer.
Re: Baking bread with the Romans part III – the panis quadratus strikes back (2018)
#13Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce No, it doesn't. > so it long preceded the arrival of the tomato. It did, but ketchups before tomato weren't necessarily fruit based. The original British version (and thus, the first American version, from which the other pre-tomato version derived) was mushroom based. Fruit, nut, egg, and bivalve-based versions all existed. (And the historical origin is in Asian fermen…
Is it Asian? I'd assumed—with no real support whatsoever—that it was descended from Roman garum, a fermented fish sauce that's a lot closer .
Looking it up again (was relying on memory before), it was apparently specifically Indonesian kecaps that inspired both the sauce and it's name.
Re: Baking bread with the Romans part III – the panis quadratus strikes back (2018)
#14Earlier quoted context omitted.
> make your own ketchup sometime Any recipe you prefer? Also, fun fact, tomatoes are a new world plant. So, no ketchup in the EU until after trade between America and Europe was established.
Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce, so it long preceded the arrival of the tomato.
> Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce
That's not true. Ketchup is believed to have come "ultimately from Chinese via Malay kicap, from Min Nan 膎汁 (kê-chiap, “fish broth”), though precise path is unclear – there are related words in various Chinese dialects, and it may have entered English directly from Chinese. Cognate to Indonesian kecap, ketjap (“soy sauce”). Various other theories exist – see Ketchup: Etymology for extended discussion." [1]
This etymology places the origin of ketchup closer to "fish sauce", pickled cabbage with meat, or conceptually even yogurt or bread!
> so it long preceded the arrival of the tomato.
Yes, but it has nothing to do with fruits, unless you are fermenting them to get rid of bad-bacteria and maybe increase shelf-life.
Re: Baking bread with the Romans part III – the panis quadratus strikes back (2018)
#15I love all history of bread making, I find it super interesting i wasn general the discover of foods we take for granted. Protip: make your own ketchup sometime..hot dang it's easily to see why it became ubiquitous..and then cry over how terrible the mass produced stuff is ;)
> make your own ketchup sometime Any recipe you prefer? Also, fun fact, tomatoes are a new world plant. So, no ketchup in the EU until after trade between America and Europe was established.
Ketchup was actually originally a fish sauce from Asia. Then it slowly became a mushroom based sauce in Europe.
Finally, tomato based ketchup became dominant, yes. But the lineage of ketchup in Europe (of course, it is even older in East and Southeastern Asia) goes way before the Columbian exchange,
Re: Baking bread with the Romans part III – the panis quadratus strikes back (2018)
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce, so it long preceded the arrival of the tomato.
> Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce That's not true. Ketchup is believed to have come "ultimately from Chinese via Malay kicap, from Min Nan 膎汁 (kê-chiap, “fish broth”), though precise path is unclear – there are related words in various Chinese dialects, and it may have entered English directly from Chinese. Cognate to Indonesian kecap, ketjap (“soy sauce”). Various other theories exist – see Ketchup: Et…
After reading the further Wikipedia entry on the etymology of the term, it feels like it should be stressed more strongly that the etymology you quoted is not necessarily the strongest contender, but just one of a few that may or may not be correct.
Re: Baking bread with the Romans part III – the panis quadratus strikes back (2018)
#17I love all history of bread making, I find it super interesting i wasn general the discover of foods we take for granted. Protip: make your own ketchup sometime..hot dang it's easily to see why it became ubiquitous..and then cry over how terrible the mass produced stuff is ;)
> make your own ketchup sometime Any recipe you prefer? Also, fun fact, tomatoes are a new world plant. So, no ketchup in the EU until after trade between America and Europe was established.
Weird that you said 'the EU' rather than 'Europe'. But since you did I'll point out that there are several EU territories in America that would have had ketchup to begin with.
Re: Baking bread with the Romans part III – the panis quadratus strikes back (2018)
#18Earlier quoted context omitted.
> make your own ketchup sometime Any recipe you prefer? Also, fun fact, tomatoes are a new world plant. So, no ketchup in the EU until after trade between America and Europe was established.
Ketchup was actually originally a fish sauce from Asia. Then it slowly became a mushroom based sauce in Europe. Finally, tomato based ketchup became dominant, yes. But the lineage of ketchup in Europe (of course, it is even older in East and Southeastern Asia) goes way before the Columbian exchange,
Also apparently banana ketchup is common in the Philippines
Re: Baking bread with the Romans part III – the panis quadratus strikes back (2018)
#19I think I have also inadvertently recreated the "carbonized panis quadratus" in my home oven recently.
Side note: pretty paranoid website owner to have disabled all text selection/copying functions (or overlaid it with a transparent object)...
Re: Baking bread with the Romans part III – the panis quadratus strikes back (2018)
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce That's not true. Ketchup is believed to have come "ultimately from Chinese via Malay kicap, from Min Nan 膎汁 (kê-chiap, “fish broth”), though precise path is unclear – there are related words in various Chinese dialects, and it may have entered English directly from Chinese. Cognate to Indonesian kecap, ketjap (“soy sauce”). Various other theories exist – see Ketchup: Et…
After reading the further Wikipedia entry on the etymology of the term, it feels like it should be stressed more strongly that the etymology you quoted is not necessarily the strongest contender, but just one of a few that may or may not be correct.
Would you be specific as to what etymology you mean? I linked the extended discussion above.
The Wiktionary page I linked to, as well as many other etymological pages on the web say what I did above. There are many things that could be true, but they do not all have the same likelihood.
Even NPR [1] and the history channel [2] have pages on the etymology of ketchup.
[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/12/02/248195661...
[2] https://www.history.com/news/ketchup-surprising-ancient-hist...