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Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

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Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#111

Post by mtrimpe »

cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

I think we should start thinking in battery cargo trailers. When do you want extra range and battery? When you're going on holiday. What do you want apart from extra range when you're going on holiday? Extra storage space!

So why not just start selling battery cargo trailers which can provide your main car with extended range when needed?

It's also much easier to swap and rent out physically, financially and emotionally than your main car.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#112

Post by the_biot »

tokamak-teapot wrote: post #20
cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

I’d love a car with a tiny battery for 99% of the time when I’m just driving locally and the ability to have an extra, large battery that can be slotted in when I want to make a longer trip. With only the short range battery most of the time, my car’s weight is low and efficiency high. Maybe I could keep that battery in my house and use it to store solar electricity most of the time. It seems like it should be possib…

> Maybe I could keep that battery in my house and use it to store solar electricity most of the time.

That's utopian. These things weigh a ton, you'd need a forklift.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#113

Post by zeristor »

ericmay wrote: post #80
influxmoment wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very forward thinking move for 2018. I look forward to us all driving Chinese BYD cars at this rate of innovation

We could solve that problem pretty easily by just not relying on cars.

Less car crash deaths too.

But society will disintegrate if we move away from using cars, as opposed to disintegrating if we keep using them.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#114

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F »

jbverschoor wrote: post #43
cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

Not only that, but the weight of EVs is a huge toll on the infrastructure, esp. in more historic centers

Compare the weight of a Tesla Model 3 SR (most popular version) and a BMW 3 Series (its most comparable model to the Tesla Model 3). Weight difference is negligible.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#115

Post by pacija »

clouddrover wrote: post #97
cumshitpiss wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with trading with China?

China arbitrarily bans trade when it wants to "punish" nations: https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/china-turns-to-lobsters-wine-and... China has made it clear that it is an unreliable business partner. It is a mistake to do business with nations that don't share your values, as Russia is also currently demonstrating.

This is the price, those are the terms. If you don't like them go buy somewhere else or produce yourself.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#116

Post by flumpmaster »

nl wrote: post #82
pharmakom wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think the push for hydrogen (highly impractical at scale) by the right wing press is part of fossil fuel industry attempts to spread fud around battery evs.

I hadn't realised until very recently that most hydrogen produced comes from coal: https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/explain... Most of the time it isn't a green fuel at all and is just a way to keep mining coal.

That is not correct. Globally 75% of hydrogen is produced from Natural Gas:

https://www.iea.org/reports/the-future-of-hydrogen

See section on production.

The most commonly used process creates a mixture of steam, hydrogen and CO2. The water is condensed and the CO2 removed to purify the hydrogen product. The CO2 is a concentrated stream. This is sometimes captured and sold as a byproduct (eg food grade CO2 for beverages or dry ice).

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#117

Post by b112 »

dotancohen wrote: post #86
tedk-42 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Current-day Ford Motor having to go begging to China - for a major, iron-based component needed to produce more cars - that is laughable, and beyond pathetic. In a dark, miserable sort of way, if you care about America or its future. Sounds similar to Boeing where accounting for personal gain (promotions / raises) of upper managers and executives took effect over the long term advantage of the company.

But there was no McDonald Douglas absorbed into Ford to explain this shift. Yet it seemed to happen during a similar timeframe (late '90s, early 2000s).

JIT MBA driven push came then, plus the whole "stay within your area of expertise" movement.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#118

Post by jsjohnst »

NickNameNick wrote: post #48
alexisread wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...say like a battery trailer with a CCS socket, and with extra storage as well, for long journeys? Low tech FTW. Smartrail is still a better soln but we have to be realistic here.

Will any electric car let you drive while it's plugged in? I'm pretty sure Tesla's Rivians get locked into park when the charger is connected.

> Will any electric car let you drive while it's plugged in?

That’s what I was wondering too. Like you, I’m pretty sure the major EVs don’t let you drive while charge, but I haven’t actually tried it.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#119

Post by b112 »

smaudet wrote: post #54
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

This is huge. To date, Tesla has been the only non-Chinese manufacturer talking iron. LFP is often touted for being cheaper than NMC, but given growing insecurity around battery-grade nickel supplies, using the far-more-prevalent iron and phosphate isn’t just about cheaper cars. It’s about having cars to sell in the first place. With respect to range anxiety, pretty much every EV in the 200 to 300-mile range is sold…

Meanwhile, Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars are putting gasoline vehicles and electric to shame: https://www.timesnownews.com/auto/car-news/article/toyota-mi... Of course, you can't readily buy or charge one yet, but you don't have the battery problem (at all).

http://news.hydroquebec.com/en/press-releases/1667/hydro-que...

This is just a start, Hydro Quebec will expand production if demand comes.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#120

Post by jsjohnst »

iasay wrote: post #39
adrianN wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laptop batteries and EV batteries have a completely different performance profile. The data we have suggests that the battery will retain 80% of its maximum capacity for about as long as the rest of the car is expected to survive.

You miss the point. Most people don’t buy new cars. Most people buy second hand vehicles. They now risk degraded batteries and a huge incidental cost. My car cost me £5000 second hand. The cheapest EV battery replacement here is £12,500. I could write that car off twice for the price of a battery and still have enough money to go on holiday. When you buy the bottom end of the second hand EV market which is realistica…

> With an 80% battery that’s 128 miles of range

Sounds perfect for the average American as a daily commuter / errands car. Yes, no road trips without inconvenience, but that still doesn’t make it useless, it makes it a great secondary car instead.

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