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New divorce app to help couples split assets in New York without lawyers

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Re: New divorce app to help couples split assets in New York without lawyers

#121
post #116

Separately, as advice to potential couples: get a pre-nup. Resolves any awkward beliefs about money up front. Discloses assets and liabilities so no financial skeletons in the closet. Establishes who has what before the nuptials and frankly fast forwards your relationship to see if it is strong enough to handle a "difficult" conversation and negotiation. Lets you establish what claims your spouse will have to your fu…

I'll do one better, just don't marry. Pre-nups are routinely thrown out by divorce courts. Unless the guy is extremely poor and marrying a high net-worth woman, there is just no point in marrying, you gain absolutely nothing (except for pithy tax benefits in some cases).

> I'll do one better, just don't marry. Pre-nups are routinely thrown out by divorce courts.

That's not a good idea in many jurisdictions - after a predetermined number of years of living together as a couple (man and wife), you are considered to be married in community of property anyway[1].

It's safer to simply get married with a prenup; at least that requires either party to spend money and effort nullifying it.

If you don't want to take the risk, just don't move in together at all.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_marriage

Re: New divorce app to help couples split assets in New York without lawyers

#122
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see marriage as an equal partnership, so if there is a post-marriage 'severance' (beyond 50/50 asset disposition noted above) it would be bilateral (bread winner gives money to home-maker, home-maker gives maid/home-making service to bread winner). Seems cleanest at all just to cut ties though.

It's not a symmetric exchange though. One person has decidedly more capability to start a new life than the other. The 'severance' is intended to help them establish that new life (e.g., acquire training, housing, etc) If they're continuing to perform home making duties, they don't have the time to build that new life. And you're essentially keeping them trapped in the relationship even after a divorce. You're of cou…

>One person has decidedly more capability to start a new life than the other.

I mean possibly, possibly not. For instance, my wife makes bundles more than me and is the bread-winner yet she works a licensed career, with her license restricted to a limited geographic area with not so many jobs. For her to start a new life would be much harder than me even though she is the bread winner. Also worth noting 'home-maker' is an extremely common niche in life so it's unreasonable to believe someone occupying that niche can't find another marriage with another divorced bread-winner seeking to return to the interlocking bread-winner home-maker scenario.

As a second, point, I totally object to the idea someone has an obligation to provide someone a 'new' life just because that person lost opportunities by voluntarily entering a relationship. For instance, people often give up career opportunities to take care of an ailing family member and no judge is going to order the ailing family member pay alimony pay them back to start a new career. In particular, if the vows include 'until death do us part' then that is a pretty explicit agreement not to provide provisions for post-divorce alimony arrangement. Even worse, no one should be in the position to pay for somebody else to get a new life if a partner say cheated on you and then divorced you to chase another partner.

And a third note, you've totally looked at it from a one-way lense here. The home-maker bread-winner interlocking really is a team equal effort. When the bread-winner loses the home-maker, they may have a lot to 're-learn' -- how to efficiently manage shopping, cooking, cleaning, balancing the budget (possibly). That takes a lot of time and their health may suffer because they no longer know how to say cook nutritiously anymore, so if the bread-winner needs to pay the home-maker to re-tool for a career then the home-maker should be ordered to help the bread-winner re-learn how to cook and other essential tasks (no joke, efficiently performing all the home-maker tasks can take a long time to master!). It really is a bilateral severance, if we want to create a severance fairly.

>If they're continuing to perform home making duties, they don't have the time to build that new life

If they're continuing to perform labor to pay alimony, they don't have the time to build that new life.

>And you're essentially keeping them trapped in the relationship even after a divorce.

But that's what alimony is! I'd support some provision that alimony could be cancelled if they don't want to perform the maid service, so they could avoid being trapped into receiving an alimony payment.

>You're of course welcome to negotiate anything with a potential spouse before marriage and encode it in a prenup.

The counterpoint is here any severance should be arranged in the pre-nup. In the old days in some cultures this was a dowry, which relied on up-front mutual agreement rather than unilateral violence of the state by judge after the fact. The default should be asset transfers and splitting happens during and at the termination of marriage and not after.

Re: New divorce app to help couples split assets in New York without lawyers

#123
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see marriage as an equal partnership, so if there is a post-marriage 'severance' (beyond 50/50 asset disposition noted above) it would be bilateral (bread winner gives money to home-maker, home-maker gives maid/home-making service to bread winner). Seems cleanest at all just to cut ties though.

It's not a symmetric exchange though. One person has decidedly more capability to start a new life than the other. The 'severance' is intended to help them establish that new life (e.g., acquire training, housing, etc) If they're continuing to perform home making duties, they don't have the time to build that new life. And you're essentially keeping them trapped in the relationship even after a divorce. You're of cou…

I find it odd that the law considers the contributions during marriage symmetrically, but losses of each party asymmetriclly. That is to say, the contributions of a homemaker are equal to that of an income earner during marriage, but there is no harm from losing the expected support of the homemaker.

The homemaker can continue to be a homemaker for themselves exclusively, while receiving half an income. The income earner needs to work while homemaking, or work while supporting a 2nd homemaker.

The legal situation is complicated because the courts try to balance conflicting objectives. One is to help the homemaker reestablish themselves, the other is to maintain a lifestyle they are accustomed to. If it was only the former, some sunset duration would be appropriate, I think.

The reality is that it is often a distinctive. If the partner receiving alimony starts a career or remarries, they will lose the revenue stream.

Re: New divorce app to help couples split assets in New York without lawyers

#124
post #110

Harry Browne had a technique for splitting up assets: One partner does the splitting. And the other partner gets to choose who gets which pile. (He also has a more elaborate one, where the partners do a virtual auction of all items among themselves, to account for cases where particular items are worth a lot more to one of them. I believe it’s in his book “How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World”).

The first one is a very common technique among siblings too, let one of them split a cake and the other one gets to pick the piece. Applied game theory.

Re: New divorce app to help couples split assets in New York without lawyers

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Chris Rock says, the problem is not having to give up half of 15M. The problem is having to give up half of 35,000.

> As Chris Rock says, the problem is not having to give up half of 15M. The problem is having to give up half of 35,000. I don't understand - are the stakes much higher when fighting for half of 35K than when fighting for half of 15m? It seems to me that it is, but if you have a link to the video I'd appreciate it.

If you have 15m and lose half of it, you are still pretty well off with the 7.5m you retail. Even a quarter of that would get you a house and you probably won't have issues having a stable life, even though both parties have to set up house again.

Half of 35000k - 17.5k - might be the difference between living on your own and having to move in with relatives.

It is basically the difference between some money when you are nearing poor and money while rich - the poorer you are, the more you are going to depend on the money and the bigger difference losing/having it will have on your life.

Re: New divorce app to help couples split assets in New York without lawyers

#126
post #110

Harry Browne had a technique for splitting up assets: One partner does the splitting. And the other partner gets to choose who gets which pile. (He also has a more elaborate one, where the partners do a virtual auction of all items among themselves, to account for cases where particular items are worth a lot more to one of them. I believe it’s in his book “How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World”).

This is how my mom avoided fights about the fair sharing of cakes and pies between me and my siblings :D It works well!

Re: New divorce app to help couples split assets in New York without lawyers

#127
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have a flawed mental model of alimony. Try modelling it more like a severance package. Should you keep working for your employer after they've terminated the employment agreement, but agreed to give severance? The universal answer is a resounding 'no'.

I see marriage as an equal partnership, so if there is a post-marriage 'severance' (beyond 50/50 asset disposition noted above) it would be bilateral (bread winner gives money to home-maker, home-maker gives maid/home-making service to bread winner). Seems cleanest at all just to cut ties though.

That's not what alimony is.

The person staying at home has given up work, and cannot enter the workforce in the same way after marriage because they've not been in the workforce for years. They've given up earning potential for you to work and alimony (in theory) is to make sure you are regulating someone to poverty after they gave up that earning potential to be a homemaker without the benefits of employment (days off, insurance, hourly wage).

In states without alimony, you just split the stuff and move on. This is what you describe - divorce without alimony.

Re: New divorce app to help couples split assets in New York without lawyers

#128
post #72

Does this handle potential alimony? That’s the thing that scares me about getting divorced. A friend of mine confided in me that their partner hasn’t worked since they been married and is afraid that ending the relationship would put them in a deep alimony situation. Unfortunate side effect of living in a high cost are sure but I understand their frustration

It shouldn't be that scary. I've been married coming up on 10 years in January. I've been the sole income provider for a large majority of the marriage. I wouldn't be able to make the income that I do without the contributions my wife has made to making my life easier, and in general keeping the more administrative aspects of life under control. I'm in a marriage with her because I love her and respect her. Part of t…

I'd advise the friend of yours to create a relationship their spouse wants to be in

This just isn't always possible. Sometimes, folks change and want different things in life. For example: If my spouse suddenly decided he wanted children, that would end the relationship for me. I could not expect them to go without something they are finding critical to their happiness, but I'm not willing to bear children for someone else's feelings either.

And honestly, this is what being respectful in a relationship actually is.

But all that said, would one of us qualify for alimony or need some help getting on our feet? Yeah. One of us stays home, after all, and would need the assistance (though I'm not convinced it should be alimony, per se - not at our income level).

Re: New divorce app to help couples split assets in New York without lawyers

#129
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accusations of abuse seem pretty rational to me in a custody battle. It's one of the best ways to get custody. Come up with some 'witnesses', trick the kid into testifying on your side. Have the attorney write up the sob story and blindside the other partner so they're left defenseless. Bonus points if you can get a restraining order in the process so custody is lost and continuity is maintained by continuing the cus…

it is actually not. Courts tend to punish those if they don't believe them - accusing partner of abuse is fairly often how you get less custody. Restraining orders are not easy to get either. It can take quite a lot of fight even in cases where actual stalking and threats of violence are going on.

You're the judge and I'm a 'battered wife.' In this fiction: I self-harm myself (claim it was the husband), come up with a terrible and fairly convincing but unverifiable story of abuse and be sure to mention to you my husband has several guns and has threatened me and the kids with them. Do you choose to issue a restraining order, or do you roll the dice and hope nothing bad happens?

Re: New divorce app to help couples split assets in New York without lawyers

#130
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Divorce is a legal process for ending a civil marriage. It should be easy to accomplish for those interested in doing so. There's no point in instituting roadblocks for the sake of preserving a union, especially when its constituents despise each other.

More importantly it's not the state's business to override the desires of citizens to end a domestic partnership. For some reason Americans in particular who won't shut up about "my freedoms" completely forget about it when the opportunity to play relationship counselling at gunpoint comes up.

> More importantly it's not the state's business to override the desires of citizens to end a domestic partnership.

There is significant evidence that divorce frequently has long-term (indeed, life-long) negative impacts on children. A recent meta-analysis [0] concluded that:

> A significant association between parental divorce and every aspect of mental health was found with the following pooled ORs (95% CIs): Depression 1.29 (1.23–1.35), anxiety 1.12 (1.04–1.12), suicide attempt 1.35 (1.26–1.44), suicidal ideation 1.48 (1.43–1.54), distress 1.48 (1.37–1.6), alcohol 1.43 (1.34–1.53), smoking 1.64 (1.57–1.72) and drugs 1.45 (1.44–1.46) could be estimated... The results of the meta-analysis show a consistent direction of influence regarding the long-term effect of parental divorce on their children. Individuals affected by parental divorce have a higher risk of developing a variety of mental health conditions...

Another study on this topic (of which there are numerous) [1] says:

> Controlling for age, race/ethnicity, gender, and childhood socioeconomic position, respondents who recalled a parental divorce during childhood had increased risk of mortality compared to those with no separation. The association was stronger for premature mortality and deaths due to cardiovascular disease. Divorce in childhood was also associated with lowered adult education, fewer social network ties, more depression, and worse health practices... Parental divorce in childhood is associated with lowered well-being in adulthood and long-term survival...

Given the well-established reality of the potential life-long negative impacts of divorce on children–which, as a child of divorce myself, I see as not just something established by research, but also supported by my own life experiences–why doesn't the state have a legitimate interest in discouraging couples with children from pursuing divorce for insufficiently weighty reasons?

[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00223...

[1] https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00038-012-0373-x

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