What I don’t like about working at a remote job • Hacker News Board

Re: What I don’t like about working at a remote job

#171

Post by jasonboyd » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 7:17 AM UTC

bvm wrote: post #169

_s wrote: post #27

Working from home, or remotely is not for everyone - neither is being in an office. Some folks thrive in an office environment, they value the things it provides - a schedule, a time, a reason to get up and out, socialising with others, being out in the world. It comes at a cost of time and a bit of freedom; you don't really get to choose the hours or where this happens, neither the folks you interact with. Others pr…

Is it wrong that I value both of those things? I like going in once or twice a week, catching up with my team, writing stuff on a whiteboard, having in person 1:1s, attending an all hands in person, getting a free snack from the kitchen, having a beer after work at the pub. I also like making my own breakfast, lunch and dinner, not spending over 50 quid travelling to the office, booking out an afternoon to write some…

No post body was provided.

Re: What I don’t like about working at a remote job

#172

Post by blub » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 7:42 AM UTC

_s wrote: post #27

Working from home, or remotely is not for everyone - neither is being in an office. Some folks thrive in an office environment, they value the things it provides - a schedule, a time, a reason to get up and out, socialising with others, being out in the world. It comes at a cost of time and a bit of freedom; you don't really get to choose the hours or where this happens, neither the folks you interact with. Others pr…

Office work has obvious costs for the company (rent, etc), and obvious costs for the employee (commute, etc). All of these were known and agreed upon when the contract was signed.

What many proponents of remote work are arguing for is unilaterally changing the contract because it’s possible to also work from home. This line of argument typically highlights the obvious benefits for the employee (no commute, flexibility, etc.), but often ignores the less obvious cost of working from home, such as lower team/company social cohesion, poorer communication, significantly more difficult onboarding for new employees and quite likely reduced productivity and socialization. Additionally the employee can expect some increased costs (electricity, food) which my or may not be offset by reductions from dropping eating out and such.

While many software engineers accepted poor working conditions in exchange for money and opportunities, now they want to have their cake and eat it too - at the cost of new employees and their company. Maybe the latter is excusable depending on the company, but the former is not and needs to be discussed instead of being swept under the rug.

Re: What I don’t like about working at a remote job

#173

Post by Karrot_Kream » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 7:46 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #170

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Choose to not make every day the same. You're free! For us, once we all went remote, the day just started earlier. Whereas we used to start at 10 we begun starting meetings at 8. The assumption being that nobody is commuting, so why not start the day earlier? This also helped accommodate others in non-Pacific Americas timezones. This means you have to jump straight into meetings and each day can't be materially dif…

> But my coworkers and I have so much shared context. We spend 8 hours+ together. It feels like a waste to pretend that we just don't have anything in common despite the time. I think that what is kind of unsaid and lost here is that long working hours in office were super often about socialization and not work itself. I mean, it was noticeable even before - people who were there long hours tend to chat away a lot of…

I've never seen this at any Western STEM company I've been at. ICs have been rated on tickets and tickets alone, no matter how lossy the metric, in my experience. I've only seen this at Asian companies which don't track work through tickets.

But let's assume this is true. What does this have to do with "It feels like a waste to pretend that we just don't have anything in common despite the time.". Let's assume, to play devil's advocate, that 40% of your 8 hour day is a waste, that 3.2 hours of your day was a waste used to prop up performance reviews. This leaves 4.8 hours of a day with your coworkers actually working. That's 4.8 hours of building connection. To recreate this effect, I'd need to equivalently spend 4.8 hours per day connecting/socializing with others to build the same rapport. That's more than I've ever spent in any social context with friends sans events like week-long concerts or vacations and those are special occasions. This 4.8 hours of daily connection is now lost under a scenario where people don't form bonds at work.

I'm not sure how this complaint is relevant. Just because the time was superfluous or used to pad performance reviews, a claim that seems dubious for ticket-based companies, doesn't negate the time spent connecting. Getting annoyed/angry at a culture that rewards face-time is unrelated to the reality of time spent together in the same context.

Re: What I don’t like about working at a remote job

#174

Post by exmadscientist » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 7:54 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #166

slategruen wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if there's any study to back this up but aren't introverts generally more sensitive to social cues? As an introvert myself, we have similar frustrations. In-person communication is just more effective in some cases.

Afaik no. Introverts can be both very good at social cues and bad at them. Same goes for extroverts. Introversion vs extrovertion is just one of huge amount of traits we have. Also, it ia not like there would be two distinct species. It is scale and majority of the people are in the middle between extroversion and introversion. Just slightly biased toward one side.

The distinction between "introvert" and "extrovert" is really about whether socializing is draining or recharging.

I'm extremely introverted and plenty "good at" (most forms of) socializing. It's also hard work for me. But it's hard work like going on a mountain hike is hard work: it's a fantastic experience (usually) and I am glad I do it, but I also simply can't do it 24/7/365.

Re: What I don’t like about working at a remote job

#175

Post by lmarcos » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:10 AM UTC

bvm wrote: post #169

_s wrote: post #27

Working from home, or remotely is not for everyone - neither is being in an office. Some folks thrive in an office environment, they value the things it provides - a schedule, a time, a reason to get up and out, socialising with others, being out in the world. It comes at a cost of time and a bit of freedom; you don't really get to choose the hours or where this happens, neither the folks you interact with. Others pr…

Is it wrong that I value both of those things? I like going in once or twice a week, catching up with my team, writing stuff on a whiteboard, having in person 1:1s, attending an all hands in person, getting a free snack from the kitchen, having a beer after work at the pub. I also like making my own breakfast, lunch and dinner, not spending over 50 quid travelling to the office, booking out an afternoon to write some…

The problem with an hybrid approach is that it forces you to live close to the office. If I were living in Hamburg and the company I want to work for is located in Munich and requires me to go 1 day/week to the office... Well that's a nogo to begin with.

So hybrid mode limits a lot your pool of potential employers.

Re: What I don’t like about working at a remote job

#176

Post by epicureanideal » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:18 AM UTC

lars512 wrote: post #156

getYeGone wrote: post #149

I graduated in 2020 into what was supposed to be a “regular” in-person job, that was turned into a fully remote job due to Covid. I ended up hating it there, and since have found a new primarily-remote job that I love. My life feels hopeless. I wake up, go to the gym, and then work from 9–8. I work so much because I have nothing better to do. Then I watch a movie or some garbage on YouTube and go to bed. I have no fr…

To make new friends, you should try to find an activity you enjoy and a group you can join regularly (e.g. a meetup). If the activities are weekly, one could be enough. If monthly, pick up a couple of different ones. Over months you end up slowly building the relationships with others that you’ve missed. I had to do this after moving to a new country, it made a big difference in the end.

Good advice, but difficult in practice. Many activities stopped meeting in person during the pandemic and have barely started to resume them. And there are fewer than you would think.

Has anyone had success with this that they can share?

Re: What I don’t like about working at a remote job

#177

Post by epicureanideal » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:21 AM UTC

bowsamic wrote: post #159

getYeGone wrote: post #149

I graduated in 2020 into what was supposed to be a “regular” in-person job, that was turned into a fully remote job due to Covid. I ended up hating it there, and since have found a new primarily-remote job that I love. My life feels hopeless. I wake up, go to the gym, and then work from 9–8. I work so much because I have nothing better to do. Then I watch a movie or some garbage on YouTube and go to bed. I have no fr…

I think this is an epidemic right now frankly. A lot of people your age are struggling to find and maintain any kind of social connection and live a totally isolated life. It isn’t surprising, we aren’t used to having to go out of our way to find any social situation. It’s entirely possible to live without talking to anyone. Unfortunately for some reason it quickly becomes misanthropic too, especially if you have dep…

> you start to not want to be around people or not want to talk to people, you forget what they can offer you.

The current political and cultural battles, in addition to a lingering #MeToo atmosphere, may also make this harder.

Re: What I don’t like about working at a remote job

#178

Post by lytefm » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:24 AM UTC

tpmoney wrote: post #71

_s wrote: post #27

Working from home, or remotely is not for everyone - neither is being in an office. Some folks thrive in an office environment, they value the things it provides - a schedule, a time, a reason to get up and out, socialising with others, being out in the world. It comes at a cost of time and a bit of freedom; you don't really get to choose the hours or where this happens, neither the folks you interact with. Others pr…

>There is also a somewhat of divide between introverts and extroverts between which they prefer, but of course - there are many in either camp leaning the other way too. Yeah, as an introvert, seeing the constant assertion that only extroverts want to work from the office is very frustrating. It is because I am an introvert that I want to work from the office. Sure, I struggle with interacting with people in general…

I doubt that this is an extravert/ intravert divide and am pretty sure it has more to do with the current life situation.

Young, single and living nearby by yourself or in a shared flat without a dedicated room to work in? Not too sure about what to do with free time? Going to the office for socializing and structure is great.

Married, with kids and living in a house on the countryside? Strong social ties and no need to get to know your colleagues? Or traveling around/ having an otherwise fulfilling life outside work? Then, remote is awesome.

I'm rather introverted myself and very happy with hybrid. Meeting colleagues when I feel like socializing and in need of some routine, working remotely when I have other things to do and want the flexibility.

Re: What I don’t like about working at a remote job

#179

Post by ido » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:27 AM UTC

lpapez wrote: post #165

Xcelerate wrote: post #135

Everyone talks about losing focus at home, oversleeping, and doing other activities during the work day. For some reason I've had the opposite problem. I used to get into the office around 8 AM, take a lunch break, go grab dessert or take a walk in the garden later, etc. Then I'd leave around 4:30 PM and forget about work until the next day. Now I wake up at 5:00 AM and basically work non-stop in the same spot (somet…

Now I wake up at 5:00 AM and basically work non-stop in the same spot (sometimes a coffee shop in the morning) until 6:30 PM. I skip breakfast and lunch altogether, because I've found that without walking around the office campus I gain weight too quickly. It sounds like you filled the extra time gained through WFH mostly with more work. Try filling it up with social activities, exercise, going outside etc. You might…

If the OP is correct in their assessment, they work 13.5 hours per day - that sound way too much to me, especially as they previously used to work 8.5 hours minus breaks...

I'm personally happy to put in a productive 9-5 and don't see a need to regularly work 60-70 hour weeks.

Re: What I don’t like about working at a remote job

#180

Post by ido » Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 8:30 AM UTC

bowsamic wrote: post #159

getYeGone wrote: post #149

I graduated in 2020 into what was supposed to be a “regular” in-person job, that was turned into a fully remote job due to Covid. I ended up hating it there, and since have found a new primarily-remote job that I love. My life feels hopeless. I wake up, go to the gym, and then work from 9–8. I work so much because I have nothing better to do. Then I watch a movie or some garbage on YouTube and go to bed. I have no fr…

I think this is an epidemic right now frankly. A lot of people your age are struggling to find and maintain any kind of social connection and live a totally isolated life. It isn’t surprising, we aren’t used to having to go out of our way to find any social situation. It’s entirely possible to live without talking to anyone. Unfortunately for some reason it quickly becomes misanthropic too, especially if you have dep…

I agree about your assessments of north-Germans, but I haven't found south-Germans (or at least Austrians, which everyone tell me are ± the same as Bavarians) any better - in fact in my 8 years in Vienna I found the natives a lot less friendly/colder than in my now 9 years in Berlin.