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Why does Apple hate the scrollbar?

ashlan.com

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Re: Why does Apple hate the scrollbar?

#41

Post by gumby »

> The scroll bar has been around since the start of computers ...

Actually not; I first saw a scrollbar on an Alto in the late 70s. Computing had been around for three decades at that point.

Not that I like the scrollbar. The Apple ones appeal to me because 1 - they are only there when I want one (which is almost never) and 2 - even then they are quite small.

Even if you like the scrollbar, this mechanism seems like it would be good when you can scroll different parts of the display, parts that may not even be delineated by a box.

Re: Why does Apple hate the scrollbar?

#42

Post by layer8 »

_aavaa_ wrote: post #13
samemail88 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, at least with the phone, there's limited screen. There's NO reason why the scrollbar should be invisible for the desktop though.

You can hide it for the same reason people choose to hide their bookmark bar, or reading list, or dock. They simply don't want it to take up room on the screen so they can focus on the website

It‘s okay to make it hidable as a user preference setting, but the default should be for the scrollbar to be visible (and wide enough to not be a difficult touch/mouse target), for affordance and discoverability reasons.

Re: Why does Apple hate the scrollbar?

#43

Post by david2ndaccount »

layer8 wrote: post #40
david2ndaccount wrote: post #38

If you are using a trackpad or a touch screen, they are not very useful.

They serve to indicate the scroll position and the relative size of the scrolled view (and the fact that there is a scrollable view in the first place), and to quickly scroll a longer range.

They still exist (they appear when scrolling), but for regular use with a trackpad you don’t need to move your pointer into the scrollbar. Having them always visible is unnecessary and gets crowded when you have more than one scrollable region.

Re: Why does Apple hate the scrollbar?

#45

Post by hulitu »

rocket_surgeron wrote: post #28
protastus wrote: post #21

Apple, Android, Windows. Every OS has jumped into this bandwagon. Usability keeps deteriorating at the expense of aesthetics. I resent designers for messing up user experience, pushing the industry away from good solutions that were discovered and implemented decades ago.

For me personally, a persistent scrollbar is as relevant to usability as the {x,y} coordinates that old Unix windowing systems like MWM or CDE used to draw whenever you moved or resized a window. There were many, MANY extremely intelligent and highly technical people who got into very long flame wars when the feature of displaying the X and Y coordinates of the center of a window and the corners whenever it was moved…

" What use case is there?"

I need to scroll the damn thing. Not with the mouse scroll ( too rough) not with the keyboard ( i don't want to lose keyboard focus from the current element). I just need to scroll. I don't have time to wait until the scrollbar appears, i don't want to click for it to appear. I just want it there.

Re: Why does Apple hate the scrollbar?

#46

Post by layer8 »

david2ndaccount wrote: post #43
layer8 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They serve to indicate the scroll position and the relative size of the scrolled view (and the fact that there is a scrollable view in the first place), and to quickly scroll a longer range.

They still exist (they appear when scrolling), but for regular use with a trackpad you don’t need to move your pointer into the scrollbar. Having them always visible is unnecessary and gets crowded when you have more than one scrollable region.

It is annoying to to have to perform a UI action to see the scrollbar (or to see if there is a scrollbar) instead of it just being there. Also, many people work with a regular keyboard with mouse, and may be operating mostly with the keyboard, and now have to reach for the mouse just to see the scrollbar. The scrollbar is an important UI element even if you just use PgUp/PgDn etc. to scroll by keyboard.

You might as well argue that it is not necessary to have the status bar always visible, or any other type of indicator.

I also don’t buy the “crowded” argument, because scrollbars were perfectly fine when we only had 14" monitors with 1024x768 resolution.

Re: Why does Apple hate the scrollbar?

#47

Post by _aavaa_ »

samemail88 wrote: post #33
_aavaa_ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can hide it for the same reason people choose to hide their bookmark bar, or reading list, or dock. They simply don't want it to take up room on the screen so they can focus on the website

What if Apple took your argument to the extreme and remove the URL bar, back button and the tabs bar so you can focus on the website? Would you be OK with that?

A) they haven’t removed the scroll bar, they simply hide it when you’re not scrolling.

B) Despite your cheery tone that IS an option you can turn on when you fullscreen safari and Chrome, and I do in fact use it. It’s great. The whole screen is just the web page you’re on.

Re: Why does Apple hate the scrollbar?

#48

Post by david2ndaccount »

layer8 wrote: post #46
david2ndaccount wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They still exist (they appear when scrolling), but for regular use with a trackpad you don’t need to move your pointer into the scrollbar. Having them always visible is unnecessary and gets crowded when you have more than one scrollable region.

It is annoying to to have to perform a UI action to see the scrollbar (or to see if there is a scrollbar) instead of it just being there. Also, many people work with a regular keyboard with mouse, and may be operating mostly with the keyboard, and now have to reach for the mouse just to see the scrollbar. The scrollbar is an important UI element even if you just use PgUp/PgDn etc. to scroll by keyboard. You might as…

There are 3 settings on macs: Always show scrollbars, only show when scrolling, and show scrollbars if a mouse is connected. Set it to the one you like. I can go without scrollbars and you can have scrollbars displayed.

Re: Why does Apple hate the scrollbar?

#49

Post by _aavaa_ »

wtallis wrote: post #36
_aavaa_ wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I meant was auto-hiding scrollbars. Do you think having visible scroll-bars does anything if Microsoft just re-enables those settings when you update windows?

> if Microsoft just re-enables those settings when you update windows? That's another matter entirely. Microsoft's current strategy is to give at least some appearance of getting informed consent for those anti-features. Silently re-enabling them during an update without asking the user would be much more likely to get them in trouble.

It is not another thing. You argue that auto-hiding scroll bars are used by Microsoft to create dark patterns for hiding settings from you. My point is that the problem is Microsoft and not an auto-hiding scroll bar.

As for not knowing about it being scrollable, apple explicitly addresses it in their design guidelines: https://developers.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelin...

“Make it apparent when content is scrollable. Because scroll bars aren’t always visible, it can be helpful to make it obvious when content extends beyond the view. For example, displaying partial content at the edge of a view indicates that there’s more content in that direction. Although most people immediately try scrolling a view to discover if additional content is available, it’s considerate to draw their attention to it.”

Re: Why does Apple hate the scrollbar?

#50

Post by _aavaa_ »

xdennis wrote: post #31
_aavaa_ wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having an always on scrollbar may save you from trying to have to scroll. But not knowing if you can scroll is caused by poor website design and not by a hidden scrollbar

You don't need to design your way out of a problem with a custom solution every time if you just add the scroll bar. Being fooled into believing there's no more content is often incidental: some gap in the content aligns perfectly with the bottom of the window. (This is especially the case with designer websites which use a lot of blank spaces.) You shouldn't need a custom solution.

I wouldn’t consider having the website be designed to let you know that there’s more content a “custom solution”.

As for the rest of your comment. This really is a matter of preference. You’ve built a habit to look at the scroll bar. I’ve built a habit to try scrolling and see what happens.

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