Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#391

Post by twawaaay » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 8:42 PM UTC

mynameishere wrote: post #375

twawaaay wrote: post #282

In decades of interviewing and hiring developers I have not seen an actual difference coming from posting salary ranges. I tried many different versions of this. As a candidate, I do not apply to a thousand different places. I find 3-4 where I would want to work and I do my research before I even apply. I know what they can pay me before I get to talk to them. As an interviewer I try to stay away from candidates that…

Quoted post unavailable.

When I have internal conversation with myself, there is no difference between lose and loose. Probably because in my native language both pronunciations are indistinguishable.

And also at least partly because I mostly work with polite people who will not point out my language mistakes. And I never attended any classes to have a chance for a teacher to weed it out.

As to your comment about sloppiness/ignorance, you might be ignorant thinking that because you care it means everybody else also has to.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#392

Post by TigeriusKirk » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 8:42 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #179

bilsbie wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind it’s really easy to trick yourself into believing the salaries you’re offering are aggressive. I bet 80% of companies would say they have above average salaries.

All our salaries are based upon most recent data assembled by market across the country and, in the case of this round of hiring, +10% to deal with the current inflation conditions. So, I am not just 'saying'. I have data. Careful research goes into making sure our employees are paid in pace or exceeding the market.

What's the number?

Every time I've encountered someone claiming they offered "aggressive" salaries, they were not in fact doing so.

Those who actually are offering aggressive salaries just put the number out there and let people decide for themselves.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#393

Post by SauciestGNU » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 8:43 PM UTC

renlo wrote: post #371

mlyle wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another, simpler option: When you put a range of $100-120k, the very high quality candidate who won't accept an offer less than $150k doesn't apply. Or, put another way: > It could simultaneously be true that including a good salary range increases the number of applicants who are good fits for the role, and also true that including a good salary range decreases the average quality of candidates. Part of "good fit" c…

I think parent understands your point, but, it's implied that the salaries were high, so your example doesn't fit. > Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit Your example covers the case of "mid-range salary", overqualified applicant doesn't want the job, but wasn't going to get hired anyways because overqualified. Parent's example covers "very high salary", underqualified applicant wants t…

Not who you're asking, but I take "very aggressive to the developer's benefit" with a mountain of salt, because everytime I've come across someone saying that the eventual comp was extremely poor and they were either deliberately lying or completely out of touch with the labor market.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#394

Post by scrumbledober » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 8:44 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #364

dotdi wrote: post #256

More anecdotal evidence: a few years back I wanted to get out of the work situation I was in. I looked around, had some interviews, had some offers. None of the postings had salary ranges, as is common where I live. My eyes, however, were set on a specific small company because I liked their product. The process was long and involved multiple meetings, a take-home problem, and stretched over 2 or so months. I was upf…

I seriously don't get how slow firms hire anyone. Surely the people you want will vanish quickly? I recently found a new job, had a backup offer after a week, and the job I actually wanted 4 weeks later, after about 7 working days post contact. After I signed, several of the firms I'd interviewed with got back to me with interest. This is weeks after initial contact, and weeks after the last interview, so if course I…

small anecdote but the small startup i work for has been having a really hard time with candidates accepting other offers part way through our hiring process. We took some steps to make our entire hiring loop 2-3 days total and it has had a great improvement.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#395

Post by nvrspyx » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 8:45 PM UTC

JoshuaDavid wrote: post #294

nvrspyx wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not. They probably got responses from better candidates on the one with no salary range posted because if those candidates knew what the salary range was beforehand, they wouldn't have applied at all. The better question is were they able to hire any of those better candidates after they told them that the milk was expired?

It could simultaneously be true that including a good salary range increases the number of applicants who are good fits for the role, and also true that including a good salary range decreases the average quality of candidates. One way you might see that effect is if both candidates who are good fits for the role and candidates who are bad fits for the role apply more often when a high salary is posted, but the numbe…

You make a good point, except it's moot in this particular case. There is no mention of averages. The best candidates simply responded to the one with no salary range posted.

> The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#396

Post by seadan83 » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 8:45 PM UTC

Phrodo_00 wrote: post #94

honkdaddy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The link you posted presents studies which found the opposite conclusion. >A 2014 SAP survey found that compensation is the #1 factor that matters most to employees. >Another survey by the SHRM (Society for Human Resource Management) conducted in 2013 also found that compensation and pay was the #1 factor contributing to job satisfaction Then later, >Several other studies have also emerged around what employees care…

I think the difference is that the OP is talking about being "happy at work". I don't think about compensation while working, it doesn't really affect your work environment. Compensation is important because of what you can do with it outside of work.

You never have the thought, "I'm not being payed enough for this shit?"

Or, realized new hires with less experience are being payed more? Or that colleagues that are slacking are being payed the same or more?

All these feel like concerns related to pay while working. I've certainly had those thoughts and was genuinely underplayed for half my career

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#397

Post by brippalcharrid » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 8:45 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

For most people who aren't independently wealthy, it's a necessary but not sufficient indicator of whether you'd enjoy the lifestyle associated with working in a particular job. And even if you don't need the money, it's a very clear indication of how much an employer values your time and expertise.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#398

Post by s17n » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 8:46 PM UTC

abirch wrote: post #339

dotdi wrote: post #256

More anecdotal evidence: a few years back I wanted to get out of the work situation I was in. I looked around, had some interviews, had some offers. None of the postings had salary ranges, as is common where I live. My eyes, however, were set on a specific small company because I liked their product. The process was long and involved multiple meetings, a take-home problem, and stretched over 2 or so months. I was upf…

It's foolish for the founders' part as well. They were wasting their programmers' time and effort as well. When I'm interviewing candidates, it's time that I'm losing. Why waste it on candidates who won't work for the salary?

Based on my experience, I'd say what happened here wasn't a deliberate decision on the part of the founders but rather a product of disorganization / disfunction in the company - probably recruiting has no incentive to avoid this type of thing, the engineers actually doing the interviewing don't have clear authority, and the higher ups don't want to take ownership.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#399

Post by Varqu » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 8:47 PM UTC

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #52

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

>Of the top reasons people are happy at work, salary is way down on the list. You're conflating multiple things here. People aren't focusing on money because it's the most important part. They focus on money because it's one of the few things that's relatively easy to make tangible ahead of time. Similar goes for things like remote/hybrid, secondary benefits, etc. Many elements on that list, while important, are incr…

I agree on that and we had similar observations on the job boards that we manage (each of them has mandatory salary brackets if you want to post a job[1])

Obviously, salary is not the only criteria for picking a new role, but by publishing it upfront, you quickly sort out the expectations (which leads to less churn at later stages) and also contribute to a more inclusive and fair job market.

Some other points that we got as feedback from the tech communities:

- publishing tech stacks & engineering methodologies is quite useful too

- it's nice if a company provides a contact person for questions BEFORE applying

- you should act swiftly and not let candidates wait for weeks for your decision

[1] https://swissdevjobs.ch/

https://devitjobs.uk/

https://devitjobs.us/

https://germantechjobs.de/

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#400

Post by jiveturkey » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 8:48 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #30

donatj wrote: post #5

> No need to waste time with 7 rounds of interviewing only to find out the salary is 50% of what I currently make. You can just ask at the end of the first interview. I've never had a problem doing so.

What happens to me is that I ask, they agree, and then they make a lower offer anyway.

That's when it's appropriate to rage on them, to inflict some small degree of emotional pain on the recruiter or HM or whoever falsely got you to waste your time, both as a little bit of selfish satisfaction and also to hopefully make it better for the next person. Then trash them on social media if you have a following. Maybe send them an invoice for your time. They won't pay it but it might be a fun thing to do.