Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#231

Post by Dylan16807 » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:50 PM UTC

znpy wrote: post #102

thrill wrote: post #28

I think they should post salary minimums instead of a range - that huge range is just eye candy. Oh, but not enough people will be interested at the minimum? Then your minimum wasn't good enough and isn't actually the minimum.

> Oh, but not enough people will be interested at the minimum? It's way worse than that. I recently had the displeasure of reading one of the dumbest thread of comments on a linkedin post because the job description did exactly that: mention the minimum salary. It was a job post for a "seo and social media manager" position which can mean a lot of things, can mean everything and can mean nothing, depending on many fa…

How long does it take to get competent at that?

If it's not a very long time, then why shouldn't everyone get a somewhat similar pay range? Unless the plan is the hire that person out of high school and then rapidly ramp up their pay as they get good.

> can mean everything and can mean nothing, depending on many factors (eg: company size, number of customers)

If the position might not be full time, then that's an important consideration. But if it is full time it shouldn't matter how big the company is or how many customers there are or how much "nothing" there is.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#232

Post by praptak » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:51 PM UTC

unsupp0rted wrote: post #16

donatj wrote: post #5

> No need to waste time with 7 rounds of interviewing only to find out the salary is 50% of what I currently make. You can just ask at the end of the first interview. I've never had a problem doing so.

I can just tell the customer the price of my product after the first demo

Some companies do that. Some actually do huge, heavily customized deployments where it is hard to tell the price upfront. For some others it's just to jack up the price if they smell a sucker.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#233

Post by commandlinefan » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:51 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #205

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

I don't know why you'd be surprised by this. If you were giving away milk, you'd get a better response from an ad that said "Free Milk" than an ad that said "Free Expired Milk," even though the milk you're giving away is expired. You're concealing relevant information in order to sucker in people who have no interest. It's the central mechanism behind "linkbait" headlines. It's just a dark pattern. People who were no…

> you'd get a better response from an ad that said "Free Milk" than an ad that said "Free Expired Milk,"

But he said he got better candidates with the ad that didn't post salary ranges. If I understand your analogy, that's like (counterintuitively) getting more responses for the expired milk.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#234

Post by stutsmansoft » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:52 PM UTC

I agree that salary ranges are needed.

I would add though, "leetcode" is also why companies struggle to hire.

I avoid outright companies who use this as a filter, and cut the process short if I encounter it along the way.

Prima donna? Sure. But I believe quite strongly these things measure memorized puzzles, not skills.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#235

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #226

lotsofpulp wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evidence points to the assumption of a shortage being wrong. By definition, a shortage of labor sellers means labor sellers have an advantage in negotiations. From what I understand about Japan, even in the tech sector, the quality of life for labor sellers is pretty bad with long hours and not much room for high pay. I imagine if Japanese tech workers has the option of working for employers with compensation off…

> By definition, a shortage of labor sellers means labor sellers have an advantage in negotiations. This is untrue. 1) Employers have more information about the current situation than applicants, and 2) employers collude, applicants don't.

True, the context I intended was where all participants have information about the market. If either party has incomplete or inaccurate data, then there exists arbitrage opportunity.

Hence the importance of price transparency, and laws requiring a minimum pay figure are a start.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#236

Post by saddd » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

>And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion, salary is a sign of respect from you employer.

Let's see your salary range numbers and what tier you fall under.

https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...

Are you in Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3?

Are you paying your mid-level engs over $200k total when including stock and bonus? That's the minimum benchmark I would use for my next job hunt. 120k+ for juniors, 200k+ for mid, 300k+ for senior, 400k+ for anything above senior.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#237

Post by bragr » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

corrral wrote: post #159

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

OK, but... some places think a "senior software developer" should make $70,000, and other think they should make $250,000 or more. And everything in between. I don't care how nice the a place it is to work, I'm not applying to the $70k place. If I can't quickly figure out where you fall on that spectrum, I'm not going to bother to contact you because job listings are not rare . If you somehow manage to present as exa…

What you are likely running into the the trimodal nature of software salaries [1] that has been extensively discussed here on HN in the past. tl;dr there exists (supposedly) in the global market, 3 tiers of tech companies, with 3 distinct salary ranges.

[1] https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#238

Post by kitsunesoba » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #227

Let's be honest about salary ranges, though - posting two different numbers is a meaningless nod to convention. Everybody who applies ignores the low number and expects the high number (maybe a little more, because they're "that good").

I would argue that the lower number is meaningful if the posting in question entertains hiring zero or low experience candidates (e.g. fresh undergrads) for the role. In that situation I would think that most applicants matching that description would be happy to get a salary on the lower end (within reasonable limits of course) since at that stage in one's career the biggest challenge is getting one's foot in the door.

In my experience there aren't many postings like that though, most are looking for at least moderate levels of experience in which case I would agree that the upper end tends to be the expectation.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#239

Post by gwbas1c » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:54 PM UTC

alexfromapex wrote: post #200

Or the hiring engineers are holding candidates to insanely high standards that they themselves couldn’t be held to. I did a 4.5 hour interview with Capital One where I had to design a full system diagram from a text description. I thought I did great on it because I’ve done it several times in previous roles for real. Then with a different interviewer I had to solve a Python challenge which I passed and then was aske…

My experience with interviews like that is that the manager isn't looking for the perfect candidate. Instead, the manager is looking to expand their empire, which means looking for someone who'll shut up and keep up appearances.

In these kinds of jobs, the best thing to do is get rejected.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#240

Post by jeroenhd » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #227

Let's be honest about salary ranges, though - posting two different numbers is a meaningless nod to convention. Everybody who applies ignores the low number and expects the high number (maybe a little more, because they're "that good").

My expectations are very much the exact opposite. When a company posts a range, especially a large range, I expect them to at least pretend that the lowest end of the scale is the best they'll give during salary negotiations. Companies, and companies people trying to hire you, have an incentive to get you the worst deal you will agree with.

That said, ranges are still nice to have. I'd much rather have an estimate below expectations than another company saying they offer "competitive wages". Competitive just means "what you earn right now, or worse".