Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#191

Post by godelski » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:38 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

> The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses

Good sample size. This probably tells us that there isn't much difference posting salary and the people applying to each. This may be unsurprising since not posting salaries is already the norm.

> better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges

I have a feeling that this is a particularly low (and highly noisy) sample.

I think you are overstating the significance of your results.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#192

Post by srvmshr » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:38 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #139

srvmshr wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Japan has always been a tech labor-shortage economy. That should incentivize employers to be advertising compensation. I am probably understanding your answer wrong. Could you please elaborate?

The evidence points to the assumption of a shortage being wrong. By definition, a shortage of labor sellers means labor sellers have an advantage in negotiations. From what I understand about Japan, even in the tech sector, the quality of life for labor sellers is pretty bad with long hours and not much room for high pay. I imagine if Japanese tech workers has the option of working for employers with compensation off…

> And even with the terrible quality of life they have now, the Japanese world keeps spinning

So it boils down to the working culture, no? The one I referenced initially..

My wife is interviewing for Oracle HR right now (mostly done deal). She is due for the final interview tomorrow. The offer has still not mentioned her compensation yet - although from hearsay she knows a ballpark. It seems even American companies play by Japanese ways when in Japan.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#193

Post by clairity » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:39 PM UTC

RandomWorker wrote: post #100

tashi wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's surprising to me. What statistical measures did you use to make sure your conclusion wasn't confirmation bias?

Also how did you prevent people finding both postings? When searching for jobs if identical they will appear in the same list. Also the smart ones applying will apply on the one without because of all the various biases that the poster has and they will play some reverse psychology.

yes, this is a major flaw in their analysis. there's no way to draw a reliable conclusion because the experiment is uncontrolled in this way, among other factors (like the subjective evaluation of candidate quality which was also uncontrolled for).

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#194

Post by joshstrange » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:40 PM UTC

kif wrote: post #158

For some companies, giving a compensation range, e.g. $150k-$200k, would most likely create turmoil internally. Imagine Bob has many years in that role, and makes $160k. If I were Bob, I'd have a conversation with HR as to why I'm on the low end of the range.

Good for "Bob"?

Bad on HR for trying to keep talent at the lowest price they can away with. I'm not willing to accept this as a valid "excuse", it just tells me your company is shitty. Bob /should/ take that info and either get a raise or leave for a place that values his work.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#195

Post by kjellsbells » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:40 PM UTC

andrewmutz wrote: post #164

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

> with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. This makes sense to me. The strongest engineers are those who really love the work and enjoy building software systems. They tend to have active software side projects outside of work. They tend to be the sort who want to be paid well, but prioritize places where they can learn new things, learn from others and be excited. They want to enjoy c…

> 'If your relationship with the industry is transactional, you rarely develop into a great software engineer'

You may be right but I'm curious. I suspect that the issue is one of trust that the employer will adequately reward great code.

If I'm a jeweler, its very evident that I will get paid handsomely for the finest work, and I will get to work with the finest materials, creating a virtuous circle. It is not at all evident that this works in software. You dont get reliably comped better for creating better code.

In fact it's so bad that people publish code outside of their jobs to demonstrate to the next employer that they should have been comped better.

on that basis I can see why the transactional mindset takes hold. you want to treat me as a fungible disposable fixed price asset? then I will act like one, starting with a demand for the highest possible asset valuation.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#196

Post by jchw » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:40 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

In my eyes, this is a great response. It proves that if we want to move salaries up, then we have to follow Colorado's lead and force companies to post salary ranges. You won't have to worry which one performs better anymore, since you won't have a choice.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#197

Post by anm89 » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:40 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

> If your primary reason for responding to an ad is based upon salary

This never get's any less ridiculous the more it is repeated. It's like some sort of stockholm syndrome thing.

I'm responding to a JOB ad, the thing where you trade your time for money. There are many criteria I use to decide if I'll be happy somewhere besides money, but they are all irrelevant if I'm not properly paid because, you know, that's why I'm taking a salary job instead of doing my own thing.

It's funny how no one makes the same advice on the other side. Oh yeah, this person is incompetent, but it's not really about the work right? We are a big family, let's make him a VP because he's really fun to get a beer with.

The same logic also never seems to apply when security is escorting you out because of layoffs and treating you like a criminal. (never happened to me personally but it surely happens to A LOT of people. Like 10s of thousands in the last month)

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#198

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:41 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#199

Post by FrenchDevRemote » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:42 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

Are you a locally/globally known company or raised funds recently?

I'd still apply to a unicorn, or a company who I know just raised $20M,because I know they can afford it and already pay at/above market.

Salary is not the primary reason, it's a bare minimum requirement, and if it's not completely obvious that the company is willing to pay enough, I won't click on it, let alone apply.

> with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges.

They responded but did the better candidates accept an offer and work for you now?

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#200

Post by alexfromapex » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:42 PM UTC

Or the hiring engineers are holding candidates to insanely high standards that they themselves couldn’t be held to. I did a 4.5 hour interview with Capital One where I had to design a full system diagram from a text description. I thought I did great on it because I’ve done it several times in previous roles for real. Then with a different interviewer I had to solve a Python challenge which I passed and then was asked to explain the Big O value for my algorithm which again I did successfully and then I was repeatedly asked if I would change anything with my solution. They probably wanted me to find a log n time solution with low memory usage in like 45 minutes when the algorithm itself was hard to figure out. Then I had a behavioral interview where they use sneaky questions to subjectively decide if you’re going to be a jerk based on your previous work situations which I don’t even remember after a few months. All of this was live over video after already successfully completing a coding exercise. I mean the caliber of person for these basic jobs would have to be insanely talented, invest tons of time interviewing, and then they don’t want to pay you a lot.