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EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

consilium.europa.eu

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Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#281

Post by izacus »

fbanon wrote: post #192

What HackerNews thinks will happen: "zomg, I will finally be able to run Arch on my iPhone!" What will actually happen: "honey, something is wrong with my phone, whenever I unlock it, a popup jumps up that says 'Please update the Adobe™ Updater™ to get up to date Adobe™ Software Updates', could you take a look at it?"

In reality none of that will happen.

The magical rockstar engineers of Apple will listen for their best in the world UX and handcraft artisanal UI that will respectfully explain users what causes the popup.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#282

Post by rad_gruchalski »

tgv wrote: post #114
Gareth321 wrote: post #2

This is easily one of the most expansive Acts regarding computing devices passed in my lifetime. The summary is in the link. As an iPhone user, this will enable me to: * Install any software * Install any App Store and choose to make it default * Use third party payment providers and choose to make them default * Use any voice assistant and choose to make it default * User any browser and browser engine and choose to…

> User any browser and browser engine and choose to make it default Hello, Alphabet world domination. They finally get the chance to get rid of that pesky Safari. Next stop: obligatory sign-in for using a service.

Funny you mention that because for the last 3 weeks Google Search is nagging me to sign in on the iPhone Safari.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#283

Post by roblabla »

microtonal wrote: post #213
turbinerneiter wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, just stay on the default settings then. This however isn't a reason for the rest of the world to accept this. And since the power in the market is highly concentrated and all of it is moving more and more in this direction, regulation enforces these alternative options now. All this does is regulate the power the provider of a product has over their customer. This does not ruin the walled garden for the…

That's fine, just stay on the default settings then. I agree in principle, but I worry that we end up in the situation where if you need to use a particular app, you can only get it from a third-party store that you don't trust. (Something gross like Facebook starting an app store.) Or course, this is mostly a result of Apple being greedy. If they had acted like a good steward of the platform rather than trying to ex…

Then don't use this particular app? This already exists today: A lot of apps are android-only, or jailbreak-only. In the same sense, tomorrow we'll likely have amazon-store-only apps.

In practice I doubt many apps will use a third-party appstore. Apple has a lot of leeway in how they will implement the regulation - they can make it painful enough to use a third-party store that most popular apps will want to keep using the primary app store to get maximum reach. Just like how almost every android app is on the google play store - despite sideloading being a thing since forever.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#284

Post by bena »

pieter_mj wrote: post #189
bloppe wrote: post #81

It blows my mind how many people have bought into Apple's position on this. No, Apple restricting your freedom does not afford you greater security. You, as an adult, can choose not to install shady software. If you're not confident in your ability to tell shady from legit, just stick to the App Store. Don't demand that Apple treat the rest of us like children just because that's how you would like to be treated.

All true. At the same time it will undeniably increase opportunities for criminal actors. For a technical user, usually not a problem (like it is currently the case on Android). For an ordinary user caught in the hype of the day, not so much.

I would argue it's a problem for a technical user as well. It's just a problem.

Defenders have to win every time. Attackers only have to win once. That gives the attackers the advantage.

And it may not even directly be your fault. All you need is a flaw in any communications system that allows privilege escalation and code execution. Then you can be compromised by someone who just happens to be in the same room.

Now while this is true even now. It's even worse when every user can download and install whatever sketchware promises to mine dogecoins while the phone is idle for guaranteed returns of 100%. Because every other phone becomes a potential attack vector.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#285

Post by the_duke »

enos_feedler wrote: post #265
Gareth321 wrote: post #2

This is easily one of the most expansive Acts regarding computing devices passed in my lifetime. The summary is in the link. As an iPhone user, this will enable me to: * Install any software * Install any App Store and choose to make it default * Use third party payment providers and choose to make them default * Use any voice assistant and choose to make it default * User any browser and browser engine and choose to…

And yet, Apple can still charge software companies whatever they want to allow software to run on the phones. Nothing says anything about the business elements of these user experiences. So if anyone thinks this law is going to take money from gatekeepers and put it into the pockets of app publishers they are kidding themselves

I think you might want to read up on the law in question...

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#286

Post by Gareth321 »

enos_feedler wrote: post #265
Gareth321 wrote: post #2

This is easily one of the most expansive Acts regarding computing devices passed in my lifetime. The summary is in the link. As an iPhone user, this will enable me to: * Install any software * Install any App Store and choose to make it default * Use third party payment providers and choose to make them default * Use any voice assistant and choose to make it default * User any browser and browser engine and choose to…

And yet, Apple can still charge software companies whatever they want to allow software to run on the phones. Nothing says anything about the business elements of these user experiences. So if anyone thinks this law is going to take money from gatekeepers and put it into the pockets of app publishers they are kidding themselves

>And yet, Apple can still charge software companies whatever they want to allow software to run on the phones.

This is explicitly disallowed in the legislation. See page 131:

>The gatekeeper shall allow providers of services and providers of hardware, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same hardware and software features accessed or controlled via the operating system or virtual assistant listed in the designation decision pursuant to Article 3(9) as are available to services or hardware provided by the gatekeeper. Furthermore, the gatekeeper shall allow business users and alternative providers of services provided together with, or in support of, core platform services, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same operating system, hardware or software features, regardless of whether those features are part of the operating system, as are available to, or used by, that gatekeeper when providing such services

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#288

Post by SheinhardtWigCo »

runako wrote: post #252
Gareth321 wrote: post #2

This is easily one of the most expansive Acts regarding computing devices passed in my lifetime. The summary is in the link. As an iPhone user, this will enable me to: * Install any software * Install any App Store and choose to make it default * Use third party payment providers and choose to make them default * Use any voice assistant and choose to make it default * User any browser and browser engine and choose to…

> * Make core messaging functionality interoperable. They lay out concrete examples like file transfer It's entirely possible that to enable compliance with this will require explicit compromises to the security of iMessage, for example by requiring key exchange with startup messaging providers. The other rules seem to prohibit Apple from describing the risks involved in such a compromise. > * Use existing hardware a…

> It's entirely possible that to enable compliance with this will require explicit compromises to the security of iMessage, for example by requiring key exchange with startup messaging providers.

Is that really much worse than the status quo, where all iMessage plaintexts are shared with Apple by default, unless every participant in the thread has disabled iCloud Backup?

> So Apple just needs to explain security & encryption to Brussels attorneys to keep iMessage in a silo, for example. (Obviously making iMessage interoperable with e.g. Discord or ICQ will compromise the integrity of the software features of iMessage.)

Are you arguing that it's impossible for Discord or ICQ to implement the same feature set as the native iMessage client?

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#289

Post by delecti »

plandis wrote: post #251

One would think that if there is truly a Europe wide market for such an unlocked device a competitor should be able to challenge Apple and Google dominance. Europe could even subsidize it. But instead, it’s more engineering by bureaucrats. Why is Europe so afraid of competing in the open market?

The "invisible hand of the free market" doesn't work when manufacturing a device requires such a huge infrastructure around it, and benefits so much from economy of scale. "Exploitative business practices must not be that bad or the free market would step in" is a painfully naive take.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#290

Post by Gareth321 »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #279
Gareth321 wrote: post #2

This is easily one of the most expansive Acts regarding computing devices passed in my lifetime. The summary is in the link. As an iPhone user, this will enable me to: * Install any software * Install any App Store and choose to make it default * Use third party payment providers and choose to make them default * Use any voice assistant and choose to make it default * User any browser and browser engine and choose to…

I think we should expect Apple and Google to fight this tooth and nail. I'm sure they've been following it and looking at ways to exploit any holes that are in it. In short, I expect it to be years before we can do most of the things you list in your post. There will be lots of court cases before we, as consumers, see any real change.

The EU doesn't operate the same way the courts do in America. The EU will require Apple/Google to cooperate with the changes while any cases are ongoing. If these cases take years to settle, so be it. If Apple/Google wins, any damages are back-paid.
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