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In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

npr.org

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Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#41

Post by chaos_emergent »

bluGill wrote: post #27

Another bad idea that keeps coming back. Real experts have written about it. Start with https://humantransit.org/2019/08/what-is-microtransit-for.ht... and be prepared to read for a while to understand why this is not a good idea despite the hype.

You buried the lede for this piece. It doesn’t say that micro transit is a bad idea, just that its objectives are different than fixed route transit. Specifically, it optimizes for coverage instead of ridership, which makes sense for low density areas.

Even the NPR article says that larger cities are experimenting with micro transit but only for harder-to-reach areas.

It has a place as a complement to fixed route transit, not as a replacement.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#42

Post by bluGill »

jmpman wrote: post #28
reidacdc wrote: post #24

We had something like this in the exurbs of Calgary in the 1970s, it was called "DART", for "Dial-A-Ride Transit". It was semi-on-demand, and not door-to-door. The scheme was, you called the DART line (from your land-line, obviously) and gave your address, and there was a mini-bus that made the rounds of the residential neighborhood, which would come to your address on its next round. It would then take you to the lo…

I’ve imagined that self driving cars would fill in this “last mile” from the end destination to an air conditioned transit hub. Once you get enough density in a transit hub, the frequency and destinations should explode, making the network usable, even in car heavy towns like Houston.

I don't see how. Once you have a car you may as well drive all the way there, and self driving makes it much faster. Then you have the convenience of the car when you get there. either way you need a parking lot for the car to sit in.

Transit works best when you can get rid of a car. The cost of owning a car is very high, transit good enough that you would get rid of a car is only a little cheaper. Bad transit is only a little cheaper, but most people will just use their car. Note that I said a car: most people are in a family situation with more than one car (or at least more than one person who could get a car if they wanted one), so we can save money by having them get rid of one car and the other car is only used for those 5% tasks that transit isn't good for.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#43

Post by chaos_emergent »

HonestOp001 wrote: post #39
bluGill wrote: post #27

Another bad idea that keeps coming back. Real experts have written about it. Start with https://humantransit.org/2019/08/what-is-microtransit-for.ht... and be prepared to read for a while to understand why this is not a good idea despite the hype.

It is the future, getting the large inefficient buses off the system is the goal. His thesis that the vehicles meander and no technology will fix that is refutable in that technology can identify opportunities to minimize inefficiencies. A good algorithm will create efficient routes for the flexible transit. Finally, the author is a public transit consultant. He is not going to be good for a reference when he is on o…

Are buses that inefficient? Why is the objective to remove them, and by what measure are they inefficient?

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#44

Post by woodruffw »

whatever1 wrote: post #37

Public transit that is not subway on rails suck big time. I have wasted thousands of hours waiting for the bus that either came early, or is late, under 100 degrees of sun and under snowstorms. Add to that the I have walked thousands of miles because the bus stops do not align with my destinations. Since I got a car and live in the suburbs, I pay much lower housing costs, I start exactly 20’ before my punch in time,…

Public bus systems can be good; most cities and municipalities simply don't bother to make it so (because "polite society" drives everywhere).

NYC's buses have their own flaws, but they demonstrate many of the necessary conditions for success: dedicated bus lanes, split-service (local and express on the same route, with corresponding bus sizes), and multimodal connections (light rail, streetcars, subways). This is all in contrast to how many bus networks in the US operate: they pick you up on the side of the highway, drive with the rest of traffic, and drop you off on either the highway or in a bus depot in the middle of nowhere.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#45

Post by bluGill »

HonestOp001 wrote: post #39
bluGill wrote: post #27

Another bad idea that keeps coming back. Real experts have written about it. Start with https://humantransit.org/2019/08/what-is-microtransit-for.ht... and be prepared to read for a while to understand why this is not a good idea despite the hype.

It is the future, getting the large inefficient buses off the system is the goal. His thesis that the vehicles meander and no technology will fix that is refutable in that technology can identify opportunities to minimize inefficiencies. A good algorithm will create efficient routes for the flexible transit. Finally, the author is a public transit consultant. He is not going to be good for a reference when he is on o…

> A good algorithm will create efficient routes for the flexible transit.

You assume there is such an algorithm. That assertion so far has proven false, and I see no reason to believe that any algorithm can overcome the fundamental problems.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#46

Post by bluGill »

chaos_emergent wrote: post #43
HonestOp001 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the future, getting the large inefficient buses off the system is the goal. His thesis that the vehicles meander and no technology will fix that is refutable in that technology can identify opportunities to minimize inefficiencies. A good algorithm will create efficient routes for the flexible transit. Finally, the author is a public transit consultant. He is not going to be good for a reference when he is on o…

Are buses that inefficient? Why is the objective to remove them, and by what measure are they inefficient?

Buses require expensive drivers and so they are the most expensive form of transit. A small bus costs almost as much as a big on to run. A train costs more per trip, but a train typically has many more people on. In theory you could run a train for service where a small bus would work, but since nobody does that the fact that a train would cost a lot more for that service is irrelevant.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#47

Post by ipaddr »

ceejayoz wrote: post #38
bluGill wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> People are very time sensitive. People have been convinced they need to be time sensitive. "30 minutes or it's free", "next day shipping", etc. are everywhere. In many cases, we're not as time sensitive as we've been trained to think. American public transit is so frequently poor that it often means a 10 minute trip by car might be two hours by bus, but a whole bunch of people would be fine with a 30-45 minute opti…

In America you have the appointment time, class start time, shift start time. Changing that would take a huge social shift

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#48

Post by conductr »

pif wrote: post #18
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #8

Aren’t these just subsidized taxis? They don’t help with congestion, they don’t help with pollution, I don’t see how they ultimately bring down costs since you still need individual cars and drivers... Perhaps in some limited cases, multiple people going the same way at the same time can share a vehicle, but how often will that work out in practice? I basically never end up sharing an Uber/Lyft with anyone else despi…

> They don’t help with congestion, they don’t help with pollution, So what? The first and only point of a public transport system is, you know, transporting people. Limiting congestion and pollution comes very far in terms of priority, and only once the core mission is fulfilled.

We already know how to fulfill the mission. Every decision after are second order and involves trade offs of various factors to various stakeholders. This is sacrificing congestion, pollution and possibly cost efficiency in order to gain ride time efficiency

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#49

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

whatever1 wrote: post #37

Public transit that is not subway on rails suck big time. I have wasted thousands of hours waiting for the bus that either came early, or is late, under 100 degrees of sun and under snowstorms. Add to that the I have walked thousands of miles because the bus stops do not align with my destinations. Since I got a car and live in the suburbs, I pay much lower housing costs, I start exactly 20’ before my punch in time,…

You know it's not by accident, right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#50

Post by ceejayoz »

ipaddr wrote: post #47
ceejayoz wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are very time sensitive. People have been convinced they need to be time sensitive. "30 minutes or it's free", "next day shipping", etc. are everywhere. In many cases, we're not as time sensitive as we've been trained to think. American public transit is so frequently poor that it often means a 10 minute trip by car might be two hours by bus, but a whole bunch of people would be fine with a 30-45 minute opti…

In America you have the appointment time, class start time, shift start time. Changing that would take a huge social shift

It's been a few years since I was in Europe, but I'm pretty sure folks there make appointments and show up at work/school at a specific time.

Public transit is fine for all of these things if it runs reliably, often, and with sensible routing. You leave a little earlier, but someone else is doing the driving, so it's a nice time to read, check email, etc.

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