Live data from Hacker News

“No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

bmj.com

411–420 of 625 posts

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#411

Yeah, but thats hardly news, we have known that for decades. Otherwise direct serotonin releasers would be the most useful ADs. But these mostly give people nausea and serotonin syndrome. ADs work mostly by being FIASMAs, reducing inflammation and oxidative stress, increasing neurogenesis and neuroplasticity, increasing the activity of other monoaminergic systems, and the serotonergic portion is mostly explained by d…

Anytime I learn about bodily functions I become more and more aware of how shit it's engineering is. Works amazing, sure, but try and fix or debug anything? Good luck.

Tractors don't know how to repair each other, either.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#412
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should they be doing both? I can't imagine shipping code that I don't know how it works, but it passes tests... If that were the criteria, then we would not have medicine at all, because biological systems are so incredibly complicated, nobody understands even a tiny fraction of how a particular chemical will affect them.

I don't think that's quite accurate. We know first-order biochemical effects for a lot of drugs. There are always side effects, but they're side- effects, and those are largely understood as well. Psych drugs have difficulties because they aren't used for their biochemical effects, they're used for their psychological effects, and psychological effects of biochemical processes are poorly understood.

An extra foible is that many medications have psychiatric side effects.

So even if you're prescribed a statin for the biochemical effect on cholesterol you might get some of the purported psychiatric effects.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#413
I have a theory which I can’t substantiate, just anecdotes and conversations I had throughout the years. But, I’m convinced a lot of depression/anxiety stems from thinking too much and that in turn is caused by an ever complex word with looser and looser guidelines or norms.

I’m not making judgements weather this is necessarily good or bad but rather observing.

In the past, even as recent as the 50s but certainly before the 20th century, a persons course in life was mostly determined at birth.

You’re born, you play, you grow up, work the fields or a job, get married, have kids of your own and die. Society was more rigid and pretty much funnelled you through a “tried and tested path”, for good or for worse. And the lack of information made things “simpler” in a way in the sense you had a small number of people to get input from. Take child rearing for example. Many modern people worry so much and research ways to “optimise” their children for example ( I’m thinking of a lot of questions I saw on the parenting stack overflow ) whereas in the last, you’d just ask your own parents. And, since they were older, the assumption was they knew what they where talking about, even if it was not necessarily true. Same with health, same with sexuality, relationships, a lot of things.

Essentially lack of information and a rigid social structure meant fewer choices which meant less thinking. And less thinking meant less depression and anxiety.

Now when you have a world of information at your hands, you have way more things to think about, to worry about and to look for information on how to fix or improve.

I’m not sure medication, even “working” one is a sustainable solution to what appears to me to be an environmental problem rather than a biological one.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#414

> Other clinicians say, however, that the notion of depression being because of a simple chemical imbalance is outmoded anyway, and that antidepressants remain a useful option for patients alongside other approaches including talking therapies. This is the key line in the summary. The concept of attacking an idea no one really believes is really a straw man. More importantly the modern practice of medicine is "eviden…

>That means treatments are tested as to if they work, not how they work. Ideally in multiple well run double blinded randomised controlled trials with at least some against treatment

There are some concerning departures from this with medical approvals based not on treatment, but biomarkers.

Without getting too political, two noteworthy recent examples come to mind. The first is abelacimab for alzheimer's, approved based on plaque, not disease progression.

The other is juvenile covid vaccines, approved based on antibody presence.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#415
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe just giving the system a kick can be a bit effective (especially in conjunction with a patient trying to change).

If you have a broken arm a cast can be helpful during the healing process, but a cast does not heal a broken arm.

> but a cast does not heal a broken arm

I don't know why people take such reductionistic stances.

There are dozens of anti-depressants, I think most people get significant improvement after trying a few.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#416

SSRIs raise extra-synaptic serotonin levels within the first hour of taking them. However, their efficacy against depression takes weeks or even months to manifest. We've known this for decades, and as a result the "chemical imbalance" theory of depression hasn't been a real contender in depression research for a long, long time. The key thing to understand is that serotonin levels don't have to be low for SSRIs to i…

> the pop-culture misunderstandings You mean the TV commercials that played about 6 times per hour in the 00s explaining that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance ?

A pill with a smiley face.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#417

When you look into the studies for antidepressants, the track record is abysmal. They’re not innocuous, trigger serious side effects, some are hard to quit, but more importantly they only make a difference in people with extremely severe depression. And doctors often downplay or don’t mention side effects honestly because they don’t want patients to not take them. The studies justifying antidepressants as effective t…

The track record is not abysmal: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/ssris-much-more-than-y...

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#418

> Other clinicians say, however, that the notion of depression being because of a simple chemical imbalance is outmoded anyway, and that antidepressants remain a useful option for patients alongside other approaches including talking therapies. This is the key line in the summary. The concept of attacking an idea no one really believes is really a straw man. More importantly the modern practice of medicine is "eviden…

Most effective treatment for depression = psychedelics. They have been used by shamans for eons for this reason. A lot of modern research into this (including 1000s of research studies from the 50s and 60s) confirms it. It was only because Nixon didn't like the fact that kids were not going to war, that the war on drugs was started.

Book recommendation: "How to Change Your Mind" (Michael Pollan)

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#419
post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They barely work better than placebo, from what I saw in my reading of the literature.

Well, placebos work fairly well for depression. And it's not like doctors can prescribe them...

The AMA says they can if the patient is informed of and agrees to their use. But wouldn't that significantly impact their effectiveness?

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#420
post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a broken arm a cast can be helpful during the healing process, but a cast does not heal a broken arm.

> but a cast does not heal a broken arm I don't know why people take such reductionistic stances. There are dozens of anti-depressants, I think most people get significant improvement after trying a few.

I don't think the number of different anti-depressants make it inevitable that some work significantly better than others. You can get casts in many different colors.
Post reply on HN