Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#271

Post by WorldMaker » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 4:36 PM UTC

I've been fighting a lot of these feelings myself. Several good friends have pointed out that it sounds like textbook burn out and I should take a sabbatical somehow to recharge.

Corporate America doesn't believe in multi-month sabbaticals. But we're several years into a minor apocalypse and almost everyone is burnt out. Something will likely have to give. It will probably be us the laborers that break first because Corporate America says they care about labor but aren't incentivized/regulated to actually care., Smart companies should be thinking about sabbatical culture if they want to survive that because if they don't plan for it they are just as likely that a lot of their laborers break at the same time. I don't know if there are any smart companies left in America.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#272

Post by blub » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 4:39 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #40

I once saw a documentary about commercial Scuba diving. This is for the guys who work on oil rigs and such. At one point the instructor asks the students, "How much will you get paid for diving in the first year?" They throw out a bunch of numbers and then he draws "0" on the blackboard and follows up with "You will get paid nothing for diving. You will get paid for what you do while diving." That means welding or wh…

The diving in your story is more like working on a computer than like programming itself. Otherwise the claim would be that we’re paid 0 to program which is easily disproven.

I think many people are overthinking this and coming up with a problem solver myth when in reality programming is an independent professional skill which has been and continues to be paid for its intrinsic value.

The stuff around programming - talking to customers, writing documentation, discussing business requirements, meeting of all sorts would be basically worthless without the actual code.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#273

Post by DanUKs » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 4:47 PM UTC

Merad wrote: post #182

kretaceous wrote: post #121

I'm curious about the following line you said. > I can't bare the devs that go out of their way to work weekends without being asked What is wrong with the devs who work on weekends? (if they aren't bothering you, of course)

Someone who's consistently working extra spoils the situation for the rest of the team. They'll eventually end up having the most knowledge and experience since they're working with the code more and they'll almost certainly be the most productive person on the team. When it's time for reviews, raises, and promotions who do you think a naive manager will flag as the all star top performer on the team? One can argue t…

I'm facing this exact problem. The guy that works on the weekend, is unfortunately the most senior engineer on our team (it's quite sad really. He has nothing to prove, a wife and kid, yet he works weekends with no reward).

He's setting the benchmark higher and higher with everything he's doing. It adds zero value, yet he still does it. It leaves us other devs having to keep up for the sake of it.

Burn out here we come.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#274

Post by DanUKs » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 4:52 PM UTC

KptMarchewa wrote: post #119

Have you worked at other industries? When compared to what other friends and family endure, programming for money is heaven. One thing you have to do however is having some firm boundaries - this is something I still struggle with.

Honestly, no. Programming is all I know... Which is kinda sad.

You either churn out work and hope you can climb to the top with the seniors and managers, or go down the entrepreneur route and try out your luck.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#275

Post by gentleman11 » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

Programming isn’t an industry. The industry you are referring to, which many of you work in, is the manipulation industry, mostly via ads but not only ads. Companies who say “I can influence somebody to do x”, for a price, usually via tracking and dark patterns, ads, and feed filtering.

It’s like a mechanic complaining about the “mechanic” industry, when it’s really the automobile industry or the engine industry or the bicycle industry they are talking about

Try to work for a different kind of software company

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#276

Post by throw827474737 » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 5:02 PM UTC

TrackerFF wrote: post #227

badpun wrote: post #2

I think most people here can. That's why, when people have enough money to retire, they DO retire, and not continue working. Work for most people is trading time and physical and mental health for money. In our profession, we got it better than most, but the underlying principle is still the same. Also, there are definitely better and worse companies. I'm currently in the best job of my life (well paying, fully remot…

The retirement bit seems more like an American-centric thing. I've worked on various projects involving American and European companies, and to be honest the European workers seem much more content with their work-life. I can only assume that it is because of stronger labor laws, more relaxed work/life balance, etc. Some of my American (contractor) colleagues would work like dogs for 6 days a week, often from early i…

Yeah.. first shocking thing in my transnational company was that they only have 10 days of vacation vs our usual 30... and they envy us always for our 3week long vacations, while their is usually used up already with Christmas?

Then those sentences here in multiple posts about it being normal to put in extra weekend days, wtf?

Add to this they even completely had to return to office 5days a week..

..and this is for high skilled tech workers, how bad is it for the rest? While at the same time the world seems to even now discover 4day weeks... what's going on over there? It sounds like modern slavery and you may need more unions and less socialism-fear :D

> European workers seem much more content with their work-life

So content they actually are asked and want to be kept employed with halfed work hours or similar even after retirement age, because their experience brings value to juniors, not because of the money but they don't feel like retiring but want to be further useful... not for everyone sure.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#277

Post by sgarland » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 5:07 PM UTC

JKCalhoun wrote: post #120

ornornor wrote: post #50

I feel exactly the same. Programming professionally for a decade sucked all the joy out of it. My personal hypothesis is that we’re increasingly being treated like assembly line workers. We’re not paid to think but to implement the poorly thought out hare brained schemes from the higher ups who have no clue about programming. This externalizes all the cost of poor quality software onto the developers (unmaintainable…

Yes, this was however not the case when I started in the mid-90's — the inmates ran the asylum and we liked it that way. Throughout my career, as tech became big(ger) business, I watched as management, marketing, and design, took away our keys. Scrum, as an example, and all that followed seemed to be a way for upper management to rein in engineering, give management "numbers" that they could show their bosses, etc.

> Scrum, as an example, and all that followed seemed to be a way for upper management to rein in engineering, give management "numbers" that they could show their bosses, etc.

Scrum is my least favorite part of my job, by far. I feel like I'm being treated as a child who can't accurately estimate project time, difficulty, or dependencies.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#278

Post by galdosdi » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #2

I think most people here can. That's why, when people have enough money to retire, they DO retire, and not continue working. Work for most people is trading time and physical and mental health for money. In our profession, we got it better than most, but the underlying principle is still the same. Also, there are definitely better and worse companies. I'm currently in the best job of my life (well paying, fully remot…

Yes, this is a crucial insight that should be tattoo'd on every new grad's forehead! Less desirable jobs are overrepresented in the market because they have more turnover, by definition.

> The job market is essentially a market for lemons, unfortunately.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#279

Post by pc86 » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

cholantesh wrote: post #269

pc86 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Connect with a recruiter (or five) and tell them that's what you want. They exist to act as a filter, and if you work with several from multiple companies/geographies in addition to doing your own searching, you'll eventually find what you're looking for.

In my experience, recruiters basically keep your name and skillset on record and don't take into account any of your other wants/needs.

You've worked with shitty recruiters, which is to be expected because most of them are.

Some of them are great and they're the ones worth keeping in touch with.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#280

Post by goodpoint » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

crabbygrabby wrote: post #17

dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a difference between programming for fun on personal projects etc in your own time vs. doing work without compensation. Working overtime for free is not only allowing your employer to steal from you, but sets unreasonable expectations on all of your colleagues, too.

I work at a place where if you don't work overtime you are considered garbage. Everyone will beat up on you any chance they can because they are bitter. Meanwhile, not everyone has that luxury. Single parents, caregivers, etc. Just because you write code doesn't mean you live a kushy life...

Then unionize and/or quit. The company is not going change otherwise.