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George Orwell’s 1940 Review of Mein Kampf

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Re: George Orwell’s 1940 Review of Mein Kampf

#201

Post by michaelchisari »

alex_sf wrote: post #187
michaelchisari wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not semantics at all. "Human nature" implies a universal, inherent state. If we have peaceful, pacifist civilizations regularly cropping up throughout history, then saying that human nature is violence just simply isn't true. It doesn't matter if the violent civilizations come to dominate. That the peaceful societies exist at all (let alone are abundant and common) means that argument falls apart.

> universal, inherent state It's not a universal, inherent state in any humans that survive. It's an aberration. That being said, I'm not actually aware of any of these abundant/common peaceful/pacifist societies you're referencing. It's entirely possible I'm ignorant of them, but I'm suspicious that they weren't actually 'peaceful'. Can you name a few of them?

| It's an aberration.

It's common enough to disprove the statement "Human nature is inherently violent". It shows that understanding humanity is simply too complex to boil down to pat remarks like that.

| I'm not actually aware

Anthropology has documented plenty. The Kung! come to mind. And this is not the early-days "noble savage" anthropology, the perspective that there have been many civilizations that operate through cooperation and peaceful negotiation is not controversial in modern anthropology.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-020-00692-8

Re: George Orwell’s 1940 Review of Mein Kampf

#202

Post by ProjectArcturis »

dcolkitt wrote: post #32
superb-owl wrote: post #9

> Hitler, because in his own joyless mind he feels it with exceptional strength, knows that human beings don’t only want comfort, safety, short working-hours, hygiene, birth-control and, in general, common sense; they also, at least intermittently, want struggle and self-sacrifice This fact has been the downfall of every utopian ideology, and ignoring creates a vacuum that fascist regimes readily fill. I wonder what…

The counterpoint is that regional support for the Nazis generally indicates the opposite. Their weakest electoral performance was in the West and South, which generally was the wealthiest and most liberal part of Germany. By contrast their base of support was the Prussian hinterlands which was already the most militaristic part of the country to begin with, as well as having a weak region economy. I think it’s under-…

Yes, the Nazi appeal was largely a response to the absolutely crazy things that had happened to Germany between 1914 and 1933. Losing a world war, and all the death and humiliation and privation that entails (The winter of 1916 was known as the Turnip Winter, because of food shortages, and that was barely halfway through the war!). Hyperinflation, where an egg might cost a billion marks. Then a Depression! And all the while, a ton of money gets siphoned off to pay reparations to the WW1 allies.

I'm not at all saying Nazism was justified. I'm saying that the insane German experience over the 20 years leading up to it had caused the average German citizen to accept extremely radical solutions.

Re: George Orwell’s 1940 Review of Mein Kampf

#203

Post by [deleted] »

notch656a wrote: post #161
landryraccoon wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eh, war is simply fun. Well an idealized version of war that’s designed to glorify it could be fun. Is actual war fun? Is the Ukraine war fun? I doubt it’s fun for any of the participants. It’s not fun for Ukrainian soldiers, it’s not fun for Russian soldiers, and it’s not fun for Russian or Ukrainian civilians. Maybe it’s fun for some onlookers that like to cheer and spectate, but I would argue that speaks more to…

Eh it is fun to an extent. When I fought with the YPG I saw a lot of Kurds jumping with exuberance cheering at the enemy "he tried to shoot me" and then joyfully shooting back. Many wars are mostly intense boredom, punctuated by occasional bouts of terror or joy. Also there's a weird sort of release from the typical responsibilities of life -- _all_ you have to do is fight (which as fucked up as it sounds, can be mor…

[deleted]

Re: George Orwell’s 1940 Review of Mein Kampf

#204

Post by the_only_law »

Dudeman112 wrote: post #200
pohl wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you in the abstract, but where I live there's toxic culture around sports that made it unpalatable for me as a kid. Back then what turned me off was belligerent parents on the sidelines yelling at the children, but the symptoms actually go way beyond that one little thing. (Conflating excellence with dominance is another example.)

>toxic culture around sports I was rather fond of practicing team sports as a kid, but I found the culture off putting for the same reasons Some people just can't behave, adults weren't even much better than your regular kid

> adults weren't even much better than your regular kid

If life has taught me anything, it's that the notion of adults being emotional mature is a joke.

I've seen numerous grown people suddenly turn into a character from Mean Girls instantly after a petty slight.

Re: George Orwell’s 1940 Review of Mein Kampf

#205

Post by pydry »

zozbot234 wrote: post #150
pydry wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Elite overproduction" is the elites' own term for too many disaffected college graduates packing boxes at amazon (or equivalent). Put enough of them to work there and many will radicalize and unionize. Having an education and little investment in the existing social order makes them a dangerous political wildcard. I doubt the Economist is fretting about incels shooting up shopping malls when they use this term. They…

> Having an education and little investment in the existing social order The problem back then was the latter. Many of them were not interested in productive work of any kind, simply because their pre-modern worldview would've equated this with a loss of station. Hence the sense of "elite" entitlement and ensuing "radicalization".

It's the combination. People with little investment in the existing social order without education dont tend to organize themselves sufficiently to be any kind of threat by themselves.

Re: George Orwell’s 1940 Review of Mein Kampf

#206

Post by [deleted] »

photochemsyn wrote: post #189

> "Whereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people ‘I offer you a good time,’ Hitler has said to them ‘I offer you struggle, danger and death,’ and as a result a whole nation flings itself at his feet. Perhaps later on they will get sick of it and change their minds, as at the end of the last war." I think there's been a profound change in popular thinking on this since the end of W…

[deleted]

Re: George Orwell’s 1940 Review of Mein Kampf

#207

Post by MichaelCollins »

whatshisface wrote: post #195
MichaelCollins wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

You can't have an evo psych narrative where testosterone makes men "love warfare" and then point to a game that's nothing like actual warfare as evidence. Edit: Your reply is dead so I can't reply to it, but you're heading in the right direction to observe that the behaviors people actually seem to have evolved to prefer include those such as eating, resting and listening to stories.

No post body was provided.

Re: George Orwell’s 1940 Review of Mein Kampf

#208

Post by llanowarelves »

zozbot234 wrote: post #128
fumblebee wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but think one of the most appealing aspects of Hitler would've been his ability to deliver passionate speeches. For example, I have no idea what he's saying in this speech [1], but the tone at which he delivers it is undeniably quite mesmerising, especially when compared to the tone of, say, Joe Biden [2]. In a time where radio ruled, it's hard not to think he wouldn't stand out, irregardless of the cont…

Quoted post unavailable.

They would have been more open to it because Weimar Germany absolutely sucked, to put it lightly.

You lose the world war, your currency hyperinflates away, and now in places like Berlin mothers and even their prepubescent daughters are selling sex as a combo-deal to get money to survive, being taxied around to strange men, like Uber Eats for sex.

Should these conditions have been embraced tolerantly and lovingly or promised to be aggressively corrected?

Re: George Orwell’s 1940 Review of Mein Kampf

#209

Post by throwaway29389 »

pydry wrote: post #12

Quoted post unavailable.

What you describe is well documented in psychology. A lot people who are attracted by power, hierarchy and domination are sexually frustrated and more often man than women.

A quick search online yields many reliable publications on the topic.

The fact that your comment is being downvoted worries me.

Re: George Orwell’s 1940 Review of Mein Kampf

#210

Post by Retric »

pohl wrote: post #173
whoopdedo wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to this is sports. War is competition through violence. When you remove the violence you get peaceful competition. It satisfies the tribal urge to fight things different than you, but also encourages healthy behaviors. Respect for your opponent. Accepting loss. Recognizing your weaknesses and working to improve them.

I'm with you in the abstract, but where I live there's toxic culture around sports that made it unpalatable for me as a kid. Back then what turned me off was belligerent parents on the sidelines yelling at the children, but the symptoms actually go way beyond that one little thing. (Conflating excellence with dominance is another example.)

I have noticed team sports tend to be vastly more toxic than solo sports.

Climbing for example has a wildly different atmosphere. Just listen to the crowd in this or read the YouTube comments, people are supportive when several women have disappointing results. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfhGW6Bwyks

People will complain about the route setting or camerawork not the athletes, that’s a shocking amount of empathy IMO.

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