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Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

antonhowes.substack.com

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Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#301

Post by [deleted] »

mullingitover wrote: post #288
nine_k wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that (early) Medieval Europe has lost much of that. Romans built blocks of dwelling houses 5-6 stories high, houses with central heating, and running water delivered to their cities (and wealthier homes) by systems of aqueducts and pipes, etc. These are things that we associate with 19th or even 20th century in large parts of Europe. Sadly, their social institutions, even as famous as the republic, wer…

> Sadly, their social institutions, even as famous as the republic, were also not practiced and even forgotten for long centuries. I mean, the main social institutions that underpinned all the others in Rome were massive human trafficking and looting operations. The enlightened Greeks weren't any better. My personal guess is that we would've had the industrial revolution thousands of years earlier if these groups we…

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Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#302

Post by inglor_cz »

nine_k wrote: post #278
hodgesrm wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not undersell the late middle ages. It was a complex society with sophisticated economics and social structures. Just to pick one example European warfare was highly organized by the late 1400s and enabled them to found huge empires overseas.

Late middle ages / early Enlightenment, say, 14-15 centuries, were very cool in their special way, with very complex social structures. ThInge like the Hanseatic league, the great geographical discoveries and conquests, the beginning of modern science, the flourishing of arts — this all required highly advanced society, compared to, say, what Charlemagne or (imaginary) king Arthur would have.

The very concept of "the Middle Ages" in Europe tends to muddle our thinking.

Life in 700 AD was completely different from life in 1400 AD. Cities, population density, building styles, international trade, weapons and warfare, agricultural methods, secular institutions - almost nothing stayed the same.

People tend to even forget that the official definition of "the Middle Ages" stretches back into the Dark Age, where kings were more like chieftains, castles basically unknown, even most of the clergy struggled to read and write, and a typical member of the elite warrior class looked nothing like a stereotypical knight.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#303

Post by dr_dshiv »

antonhowes wrote: post #300
dr_dshiv wrote: post #269

Arguably, the steam engine is a form of artificial intelligence. At least with Watt’s engine, the “governor” plays an essential information processing role in modulating the pressure. Sensing and reacting to keep a measured value in an optimal range is pretty much the definition of AI (see Norvig’s definition of intelligence). Autopilot is another example of non-computational AI (autopilot was invented in 1914).

One thing I’ll be mentioning in Part III, as I ran out of space in this one: Drebbel in the 1610s applied his insights into perpetual motion to invent a self-regulating oven/furnace. Using mercury rather than water to trap air in a tube, much like the inverted flask I described, rising temperatures would raise a float sitting on the mercury that would then close the aperture for the air feeding the oven’s flame.

Really nice. Looking forward to it!

I went to the world’s oldest continuously operated library today, in Verona. Since 517. Wow.

Saw a copy of Ars Magna Sciendi, from Kirscher.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#304

Post by jhgb »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #269

Arguably, the steam engine is a form of artificial intelligence. At least with Watt’s engine, the “governor” plays an essential information processing role in modulating the pressure. Sensing and reacting to keep a measured value in an optimal range is pretty much the definition of AI (see Norvig’s definition of intelligence). Autopilot is another example of non-computational AI (autopilot was invented in 1914).

Cybernetics. That's the term you're looking for, not AI. The governor is a control system.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#305

Post by kragen »

antonhowes wrote: post #299
kragen wrote: post #240

To me the most surprising thing about this series is that de Caus had a working CSP (concentrated solar power) setup by 01615 ( https://antonhowes.substack.com/i/57230676/solar-powered-ste... , original source https://archive.org/details/raisonsdesforce00Caus ). I had thought CSP only dated to Shuman's installation in Egypt in 01913, but I see that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power#Histo... also…

Fun tidbit, which I didn’t mention in the piece: Drebbel proposed creating some kind of solar-powered central heating system for London in the 1610s. We don’t have many details, other than the fact he thought it would cost £20,000 and would involve heating some kind of very heat-conductive material on top of a hill nearby. Historians assume it would have then involved heating water to be run in pipes to London’s hous…

That's amazing! I suppose that because Fahrenheit wouldn't invent the mercury thermometer until 01714, energy wouldn't be discovered until Emilie du Chatelet's work in 01749, and the heat equation wouldn't be discovered until 01822, Drebbel might have had a hard time in the 01610s calculating how much sunlight and how much heat transfer medium would be needed. But Drebbel consistently did things that should have been impossible in the 17th century (homeostasis with negative feedback, submarines with oxygen generators, high-explosive weapons, and androids, as well as the atmosphere-powered orrery you profiled here), so maybe he had some way.

You could probably make something like this a lot more efficient with TCES, eliminating the losses from conduction in the pipes between the power plant and the houses, but that's pretty hard to do with copper pipes. Maybe salt-fired ceramic pipes would work for TCES transfer. But even sensible heat transfer with a copper heat exchanger would probably have worked fine.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#306

Post by kortilla »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #290
kortilla wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, a control cycle is not AI. Otherwise a dam with an overflow relief is AI too and it has been around much longer than a couple of hundred years.

Then, I would propose that we refer to computational AI and noncomputational AI. Because a control cycle is absolutely what AI is—and yes, it is much older than we think. See Chapter 1 of “Artificial Intelligence: a Modern Approach”

No it’s not, otherwise we wouldn’t have a new term for what a thermostat has been doing forever.

Just look at the Wikipedia definition for a basic start on artificial intelligence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#307

Post by halJordan »

mullingitover wrote: post #288
nine_k wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that (early) Medieval Europe has lost much of that. Romans built blocks of dwelling houses 5-6 stories high, houses with central heating, and running water delivered to their cities (and wealthier homes) by systems of aqueducts and pipes, etc. These are things that we associate with 19th or even 20th century in large parts of Europe. Sadly, their social institutions, even as famous as the republic, wer…

> Sadly, their social institutions, even as famous as the republic, were also not practiced and even forgotten for long centuries. I mean, the main social institutions that underpinned all the others in Rome were massive human trafficking and looting operations. The enlightened Greeks weren't any better. My personal guess is that we would've had the industrial revolution thousands of years earlier if these groups we…

Its hurts that people like you are here solely to make others throw out the baby with the bathwater. MLK JR was a baptist. Do i have to hate him because of the baptists' pro-life stance? JKF was a kennedy; do i have to hate the civil rights act because of his illgotten wealth?

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#308

Post by lolc »

stareatgoats wrote: post #169
lolc wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out the Wright brothers patent war at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers_patent_war

Thanks that was interesting. But I'm not sure if there is a point related to the discussion in there or if this is just a tangential piece of trivia?

It's an example of how the patent system will present legal hurdles to inventors. Not just opportunities.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#309

Post by mullingitover »

halJordan wrote: post #307
mullingitover wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sadly, their social institutions, even as famous as the republic, were also not practiced and even forgotten for long centuries. I mean, the main social institutions that underpinned all the others in Rome were massive human trafficking and looting operations. The enlightened Greeks weren't any better. My personal guess is that we would've had the industrial revolution thousands of years earlier if these groups we…

Its hurts that people like you are here solely to make others throw out the baby with the bathwater. MLK JR was a baptist. Do i have to hate him because of the baptists' pro-life stance? JKF was a kennedy; do i have to hate the civil rights act because of his illgotten wealth?

On the one hand, you have a family that smuggled alcohol and a person who has religious views I don't hold. On the other hand you have people who, as a civilization, committed unapologetic genocide, rape, robbery, and founded their economic system on human trafficking . Personally I don't see how these are remotely comparable.

I'm not saying the Greeks and Romans didn't have any merits at all. Can we learn some things from them? Sure. Do we have to call them 'great,' and aspire to be like them? Absolutely not.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#310

Post by [deleted] »

mannykannot wrote: post #100
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #58

There's a big gap between 'inventing' a steam engine as a diagram in a book or table top novelty and physically creating one that can do more work than a horse or two, can work continuously, and is safe to use. The technical advances of Newcomen and Watt also coincided with the ability to create boilers and pressure chambers that didn't explode (too often).

That is true, but I don't think there is much evidence for people imagining steam engines for doing useful work prior to Thomas Savery (update: Jerónimo de Ayanz y Beaumont appears to have preceded him by almost a century.) Admittedly, absence of evidence does not settle the issue, but AFAIK Leonardo never sketched one, even though he did propose a steam cannon. If he had conceived of a rotary steam engine, or the id…

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