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Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

antonhowes.substack.com

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Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#271

Post by hodgesrm »

nine_k wrote: post #235
pratik661 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rights to privately acquire land, create corporations, and sell across markets were extant across different civilizations throughout history. The Chola merchant guilds had formalized corporate structures that dissipated the risk of long voyages 2000 years ago. Seeing that the Romans traded with the Cholas, the Romans probably had corporate structures too. Humans have been living in complex societies since the Bronze…

The problem is that (early) Medieval Europe has lost much of that. Romans built blocks of dwelling houses 5-6 stories high, houses with central heating, and running water delivered to their cities (and wealthier homes) by systems of aqueducts and pipes, etc. These are things that we associate with 19th or even 20th century in large parts of Europe. Sadly, their social institutions, even as famous as the republic, wer…

I would not undersell the late middle ages. It was a complex society with sophisticated economics and social structures. Just to pick one example European warfare was highly organized by the late 1400s and enabled them to found huge empires overseas.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#272

Post by legitster »

eesmith wrote: post #211
legitster wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I largely agree with this. But I still think there was something unique about the legal entitlements in 17th century England that didn't really exist in previous eras. Previous versions of complex structures were still family oriented, or had to put up with local power brokers, or were a fiefdom unto themselves. Like, you didn't see James Watt build a fort and hire goons to protect his assets. But that would have bee…

I'm having a really hard time understanding your observation, or how to apply it. What was unique about legal entitlements 1600s England that wasn't in, say, 1600s Netherlands? Like, why doesn't the Dutch East India Company count? Or quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Mine#Free_miners : > The organizational structure of Falun Mine created under the 1347 charter was advanced for its time. Free miners owned sh…

I'm largely thinking about why the Industrial Revolution couldn't be cooked up during, like, the Roman period despite there being many places with a similar set of ingredients.

My point isn't that England was first or best at these things, but the chronology of these things coming first was essential for the puzzle pieces coming together.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#273

Post by legitster »

antonhowes wrote: post #204
legitster wrote: post #145

Environmental collapse and the price of steel! I think people forget just how expensive metal was. Carpenters would lock up their saws because the blades were so precious. People knew how to make cheaper steel from coal for a long time, but it was regarded as an inferior product and avoided. However, charcoal is labor intensive stuff to collect. By the 1700s, some cities in Europe had so depleted their available fore…

I don’t think this fits the evidence. At least for the 17thC. People in England did not know how to make good iron with coal, let alone steel, despite many decades of extraordinary government encouragement and special incentives - witness the many, many failed patents that had to be reissued from Sturtevant in 1612 all the way through to the 1660s and beyond. Cities like London made the switch early on to using coal…

I'm specifically thinking of the period in the early 18th century with the Darby family.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#274

Post by AussieWog93 »

Beltalowda wrote: post #137
a_bonobo wrote: post #22

Just 4 days ago Nature Genetics had a really cool perspective on why nobody else did the experiments on inheritance Gregor Mendel did: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41588-022-01109-9

This seems interesting, but unfortunately I can't find the full text anywhere and I'm not about to pay $32 for an article.

If you check the article for libgen on Wikipedia you'll get the latest domain name for it.

Then, just copy and paste the title of the article you want to read into the libgen search bar and you're good to go.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#275

Post by kortilla »

fellellor wrote: post #144
qsort wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that kind of the other way around? Ignoring the obvious moral question, in a primarily agrarian economy slave labor is useful because it's relatively easy to control and there is no need for specialization. OTOH in an industrialized society you wouldn't want slaves even if you could have them.

What is slavery if not systematically, grossly under compensating someone for their work? Modern industrialised economies have plenty of tools to simulate the effects of slavery. Although without the fun stuff like whipping and other forms of gratuitous cruelty. In its essence slavery is an exchange of labor deal where the buying party has it way better than the selling party.

> What is slavery if not systematically, grossly under compensating someone for their work?

Try starting with the textbook definitions. Pretty much the defining factor of being a slave is that you are owned by someone else and have to follow their orders. You can be highly compensated and still a slave (see the myriad of anecdotes about “kind” slave owners who paid them well).

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#276

Post by kortilla »

BurningFrog wrote: post #266
bluGill wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure you can - so long as you have a police force that will check up on things once in a while. Or at least you have convinced the slaves that the police force will catch them and life will be worse after they are caught.

Up to a point, sure. But I think there is a point when it makes more sense to just pay the guy a wage, instead of running a big expensive police state controlling everything...

Depends on the scale of the slavery. Once it’s systemic you can even have slaves even enforcing the rules on each other (see military conscripts).

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#277

Post by kortilla »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #269

Arguably, the steam engine is a form of artificial intelligence. At least with Watt’s engine, the “governor” plays an essential information processing role in modulating the pressure. Sensing and reacting to keep a measured value in an optimal range is pretty much the definition of AI (see Norvig’s definition of intelligence). Autopilot is another example of non-computational AI (autopilot was invented in 1914).

No, a control cycle is not AI. Otherwise a dam with an overflow relief is AI too and it has been around much longer than a couple of hundred years.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#278

Post by nine_k »

hodgesrm wrote: post #271
nine_k wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that (early) Medieval Europe has lost much of that. Romans built blocks of dwelling houses 5-6 stories high, houses with central heating, and running water delivered to their cities (and wealthier homes) by systems of aqueducts and pipes, etc. These are things that we associate with 19th or even 20th century in large parts of Europe. Sadly, their social institutions, even as famous as the republic, wer…

I would not undersell the late middle ages. It was a complex society with sophisticated economics and social structures. Just to pick one example European warfare was highly organized by the late 1400s and enabled them to found huge empires overseas.

Late middle ages / early Enlightenment, say, 14-15 centuries, were very cool in their special way, with very complex social structures. ThInge like the Hanseatic league, the great geographical discoveries and conquests, the beginning of modern science, the flourishing of arts — this all required highly advanced society, compared to, say, what Charlemagne or (imaginary) king Arthur would have.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#279

Post by lwouis »

legitster wrote: post #174
legitster wrote: post #145

Environmental collapse and the price of steel! I think people forget just how expensive metal was. Carpenters would lock up their saws because the blades were so precious. People knew how to make cheaper steel from coal for a long time, but it was regarded as an inferior product and avoided. However, charcoal is labor intensive stuff to collect. By the 1700s, some cities in Europe had so depleted their available fore…

Imagine if you were living in this period - England was constantly at war, the trees had all run out, and quality metal was nowhere to be found. You would think you were in the late stages of humanity, not at the cusp of the greatest moment of human progress. Also, if we wanted to go back even further, the true roots are probably the Enlightenment. Before Wilkinson and Watt and Darby could think to develop technology…

> at the cusp of the greatest moment of human progress.

I wouldn't call the industrial revolution "the greatest moment of human progres". I would call it "the moment that sealed our fate". Climate change, un-renewable resources scarcity, biodiversity collapse, etc. We are headed at a breath-taking rate towards a planet that will be hardly inhabitable for us. We may only subsist as nomadic tribes only a few centuries from now.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#280

Post by Beltalowda »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #274
Beltalowda wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems interesting, but unfortunately I can't find the full text anywhere and I'm not about to pay $32 for an article.

If you check the article for libgen on Wikipedia you'll get the latest domain name for it. Then, just copy and paste the title of the article you want to read into the libgen search bar and you're good to go.

Yeah, I checked that and Sci-Hub, but neither has this particular article unless I did something spectacularly wrong, and nothing came up with an internet search either.
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