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U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

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Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#261

Post by Lammy »

kromem wrote: post #242

I wonder at how proving a legal path to ending life for anyone (with a lengthy waiting period and multiple psych sessions) would reduce the instances of impromptu suicide. My suspicion is that the availability of a legitimized path to the same result, but with a far less traumatizing method for both the individual and their loved ones, might allow for transitioning people into getting help when that's not the outcome…

> state authorized suicide

IMO there's no way this would ever become any sort of common occurrence, because the state would never willingly give up its human capital on that scale.

"Again, when a man in violation of the law harms another (otherwise than in retaliation) voluntarily, he acts unjustly, and a voluntary agent is one who knows both the person he is affecting by his action and the instrument he is using; and he who through anger voluntarily stabs himself does this contrary to the right rule of life, and this the law does not allow; therefore he is acting unjustly. But towards whom? Surely towards the state, not towards himself. For he suffers voluntarily, but no one is voluntarily treated unjustly. This is also the reason why the state punishes; a certain loss of civil rights attaches to the man who destroys himself, on the ground that he is treating the state unjustly."

— Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics Book Ⅴ http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/nicomachaen.5.v.html

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#262

Post by pseudo0 »

cmg wrote: post #69
Kye wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see people recommend Trans Lifeline all the time. Are you able to offer specifics on this?

I'm hesitant to answer this because a lot of what I'd have to say can't be corroborated except for people who work or worked there. I'll summarize, with the understanding that I left a month after the 2020 election (I gave my notice in October 2020 and stayed on to get the organization through potential security issues around the election). - A culture of internal anti-Blackness. During the uprising of 2020, staff an…

Wasn't there also a controversy regarding alleged theft/embezzlement by officers of the organization? According to their filings with the California government, over $350k in "unauthorized purchases" were made [0] (page 2, the all-caps is verbatim):

> UPON DISCOVERY OF UNAUTHORIZED PURCHASES TOTALING $353,703 BY TWO OFFICERS OF THE ORGANIZATION THAT OCCURRED IN 2017, ON OR AROUND JANUARY 21, 2018, TRANS LIFELINE REMOVED THESE OFFICERS FROM HAVING ACCESS TO THE ORGANIZATION'S BANK ACCOUNTS AND ASSETS AND TERMINATED THEIR EMPLOYMENT AND THEIR POSITIONS AS OFFICERS AFTER COMPLETING ITS INITIAL INVESTIGATION OF THE DIVERSION. ...

It goes on to say that they didn't file a lawsuit, and criminal charges don't appear to have been pursued. What the heck happened?

[0] - PDF: http://web.archive.org/web/20190221114026/http://rct.doj.ca....

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#263

Post by chrsig »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #259
chrsig wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could be as bothered by the suggestions as you. I have someone in my life where it would be a humane option, and arguably the only humane option. There are some situations that cause a person to experience a life of permanent suffering. I don't think I agree with the suggestions, but I certainly understand them, and often find myself contemplating what a better societal solution could be. The solution space…

If someone really wants to do it, they don't need a government-run apparatus to hold their hand. And if they do need that, then they don't really want to do it.

You're certainly entitled to that opinion. I can see a counterpoint to it being that there could be value in having an option to ensure they don't have a failed attempt, only to suffer more after.

It's probably better to avoid telling someone they don't really want to do it, and erring on the side of believing they do, even if you think you happen to have evidence to the contrary.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#264

Post by kalleboo »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #245
kromem wrote: post #242

I wonder at how proving a legal path to ending life for anyone (with a lengthy waiting period and multiple psych sessions) would reduce the instances of impromptu suicide. My suspicion is that the availability of a legitimized path to the same result, but with a far less traumatizing method for both the individual and their loved ones, might allow for transitioning people into getting help when that's not the outcome…

No, if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them, and it’s the responsibility of society to fix the failures that led to that loss of motivation. The path to fixing these failures is not to offer state-sponsored (or at least state-sanctioned, as your comment implies) lethal injection for anyone who asks for it. That’s sweeping the problems under the rug. I’m not religio…

I think the idea is to get these people into the support/psych system by dangling the carrot of assisted suicide in front of them. The goal being that nobody ever makes it to their goal but get "fixed" somewhere on the way, by getting in touch with help they would never have seeked if they thought their only path was ending it on their own.

Lots of people kill themselves without seeking professional help for various reasons, the hope is that luring them into the system will help them not actually kill themselves.

And for the people who are truly suffering and for whom there is no helping, maybe it really is more humane to let them be free.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#265

Post by sterlind »

cmg wrote: post #249
sterlind wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's the deal with Trans Lifeline? I had their number saved when I was transitioning and had a lot of depression going on from bullying and family not accepting. are they not a good resource for us? edit: why am I being downvoted?

I explained a little elsewhere in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32121332

thank you for explaining. it's so unfortunate that our community doesn't seem to organize effectively to take care of ourselves. I've seen similar issues in the spaces I've volunteered for as well. infighting, flakiness and a lack of effective organization. :/

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#266

Post by TechBro8615 »

chrsig wrote: post #263
TechBro8615 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone really wants to do it, they don't need a government-run apparatus to hold their hand. And if they do need that, then they don't really want to do it.

You're certainly entitled to that opinion. I can see a counterpoint to it being that there could be value in having an option to ensure they don't have a failed attempt, only to suffer more after. It's probably better to avoid telling someone they don't really want to do it, and erring on the side of believing they do, even if you think you happen to have evidence to the contrary.

That’s basically how I feel. Suicide is not the ideal outcome for anyone, but nobody can stop somebody from doing it. They already have the option for it, because it’s their “God-given” right to take their own life. So the government does not need to give them this option. And it cannot prohibit it. Assuming the government wants to “do something” about it, that leaves them with two possible policies: facilitate it or mitigate it.

In my opinion, mitigating it is the clearly correct choice, because facilitating it would lead to suicides of people who would counterfactually eventually regret it. Whereas mitigating it would at least lead to “false positives” that are failures to prevent someone from suicide, rather than failures to save someone from it.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#267

Post by vorpalhex »

yellowapple wrote: post #201
wolverine876 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it demonstrates that SWAT teams are not being sent to people at risk of suicide.

It doesn't demonstrate any such thing.

Do you have any counter evidence? SWAT isn't gonna roll because someone slit their wrists or chugged aspirin.

Now go outside and start pointing firearms at people or taking hostages and you will probably be getting some SWAT attention.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#268

Post by vorpalhex »

yellowapple wrote: post #200
vorpalhex wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your articles source for that 80k figure is literally a guess by a criminologist who gives the range "50k to 80k" based on literally no data. The only data they are using is PG county MD which has one of the highest murder rates in the country. In 2021 there were ~1,000 police shootings. 85% of shot suspects were armed with a deadly weapon. That's in a nation with a population of 334,000,000 people.

> 85% of shot suspects were armed with a deadly weapon. That percentage is artificially inflated due to LEOs having a very broad definition of "deadly weapon".

Guns kill people. Knives kill people. Hammers kill.. a surprising number of people.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#269

Post by TechBro8615 »

kalleboo wrote: post #264
TechBro8615 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them, and it’s the responsibility of society to fix the failures that led to that loss of motivation. The path to fixing these failures is not to offer state-sponsored (or at least state-sanctioned, as your comment implies) lethal injection for anyone who asks for it. That’s sweeping the problems under the rug. I’m not religio…

I think the idea is to get these people into the support/psych system by dangling the carrot of assisted suicide in front of them. The goal being that nobody ever makes it to their goal but get "fixed" somewhere on the way, by getting in touch with help they would never have seeked if they thought their only path was ending it on their own. Lots of people kill themselves without seeking professional help for various…

I can see the appeal of this argument, but my default moral stance is usually non-intervention, so it’s hard for me to grapple with the stochastic downstream effects of state sanctioned suicide.

That said, I also believe the government should provision every citizen with a personal firearm on their 18th birthday, so I guess you could say I do support government facilitated suicide.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#270

Post by roenxi »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #245
kromem wrote: post #242

I wonder at how proving a legal path to ending life for anyone (with a lengthy waiting period and multiple psych sessions) would reduce the instances of impromptu suicide. My suspicion is that the availability of a legitimized path to the same result, but with a far less traumatizing method for both the individual and their loved ones, might allow for transitioning people into getting help when that's not the outcome…

No, if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them, and it’s the responsibility of society to fix the failures that led to that loss of motivation. The path to fixing these failures is not to offer state-sponsored (or at least state-sanctioned, as your comment implies) lethal injection for anyone who asks for it. That’s sweeping the problems under the rug. I’m not religio…

> No, if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them

Speaking as someone who lives with a gibbering terror of death; we all die. Blanket statements that a motivation to live is essential is an attitude that endorses profound suffering.

It is an inescapable reality that at some point in their lives people need to give up their desire to live if they want peace and happiness. The debate is only about negotiating where that line gets drawn, and it is not set in stone that the answer is how old someone is.

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