Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did you mean m×n=n×m?
Both are axioms. a = a (and by extension mxn = mxn) is another axiom.
Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined
111–120 of 125 posts
Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined
#112From a layman's perspevtive I've never understood the existence of angular momentum as anything other than a mental model or abstraction. My intuition tells me that all momentum is only linear (except maybe at the fundamental particle level), and perceived rotation is really just a huge amount of linear interactions by individual particles that make up a larger object. This is similar to how a gas is not really a sin…
Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ex-physicist here. This is not true. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTn6Ewhb27k for an explanation. You can have a spatially asymmetric speed of light and be perfectly in line with every experiment to date. The speed of light appearing constant in every inertial reference frame is experimentally verified and measured. But it's an axiom that the speed of light has no spatial preference. Each measurement of the sp…
What is not true? You can't have reference frame independent (which is a term that also includes orientations) Maxwell equations and anisotropic speed of light at the same time. If Maxwell equations are correct (which was already well-tested by then), speed is already the same for forward and backward propagating electromagnetic waves (=light), and there is no other spatial anisotropy either. Differing one-way speed…
This is a convention. It's called the Einstein synchronization convention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_synchronisation
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-way_speed_of_light . From the article: "Experiments that attempt to directly probe the one-way speed of light independent of synchronization have been proposed, but none have succeeded in doing so.[3] Those experiments directly establish that synchronization with slow clock-transport is equivalent to Einstein synchronization, which is an important feature of special relativity. However, those experiments cannot directly establish the isotropy of the one-way speed of light since it has been shown that slow clock-transport, the laws of motion, and the way inertial reference frames are defined already involve the assumption of isotropic one-way speeds and thus, are equally conventional.[4] In general, it was shown that these experiments are consistent with anisotropic one-way light speed as long as the two-way light speed is isotropic.[1][5] "
I get what you're saying and I'm well aware that Maxwell's equations are rotation invariant. I'm saying it's more subtle and complicated than you think. For instance, time dilation will have an asymmetry under these assumptions.
Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not at all. You are applying an assumption for which you cannot actually determine is true or false. That assumption is that we could measure the differences because we would see a "linear" flow (using the word linear is the sense that it is anything that is not radially determined). What it boils down to is that it is not a measurable quantity (the one way speed of light).
I'm not following and, so far, strongly agree with the parent here (the fact that Veritasium didn't mention the CMB a single time really surprised me when I watched the video for the first time). Why wouldn't we be able to measure the differences in the CMB, depending on the direction? What do you mean by "linear flow"?
Based on the evidence so far provided, I have some concerns that what the CMB is supposed to represent is not actually what it represents.
Once you have experimental or observational anomalies that conflict with theory, one has to look at that theory as either being wrong or incomplete. After 40 years of watching these things, I conclude that we are still very ignorant of the nature of our universe.
Unfortunately, there are inherent infrastructure problems in scientific investigation and we often see politics and dogma interfering. This works to limit our understanding. I see this as a repeat of what was happening in the late 19th century. We didn't learn from our mistakes then and so we are doomed to repeat those mistakes now.
Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
Mathematics is a simplification methodology and doesn't necessarily match what actually exists. So to say that the original comment is "false" means that you have to "prove" that it is false in the sense of the logical and mathematical axioms you use. If those axioms are changed, you get a different logical and mathematical outcome.
> to say that the original comment is "false" means that you have to "prove" that it is false in the sense of the logical and mathematical axioms you use. The comment I responded to was making a categorical statement. A single counterexample is sufficient to falsify it. The entire family of FRW models used in cosmology, in all of which the statement I responded to is false, are counterexamples.
As for a single counter example, you need to demonstrate that the counter example is applicable. I don't think you have. At least not to the degree that would support your categorical claim.
In regards to both of your views, I am making no statement as to validity or otherwise of those statements. This is simply a matter of asking for you and him to provide supporting evidence for your respective positions.
This would then allow further discussion on the views and their evidence.
Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not following and, so far, strongly agree with the parent here (the fact that Veritasium didn't mention the CMB a single time really surprised me when I watched the video for the first time). Why wouldn't we be able to measure the differences in the CMB, depending on the direction? What do you mean by "linear flow"?
The CMB is assumed to be what it is stated to be. If you look at the various theoretical predictions for the CMB, you will see that the theoretical predictions have been quite inaccurate. In absolute magnitude, the temperature that would be expected is quite small. However, the error in those predictions relative to each other is quite high (way too high, if I recall correctly this error is on the order of +/- 50%).…
Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
The CMB is assumed to be what it is stated to be. If you look at the various theoretical predictions for the CMB, you will see that the theoretical predictions have been quite inaccurate. In absolute magnitude, the temperature that would be expected is quite small. However, the error in those predictions relative to each other is quite high (way too high, if I recall correctly this error is on the order of +/- 50%).…
Isn't the CMB far more uniform than we would expect it to be if the speed of light was not the same in all directions?
From an observational POV, we can see light coming to us from all directions radially towards us. We treat the speed as an essentially constant value, even though we know this is false in reality. It is a useful approximation that we use to simplify our models and calculations.
The calculated speed of light through a medium is related to both the permittivity and the permeability of the medium through which the light is passing. When you get to the situation where any kind of changes occur in these values over the path you then see other thing happening related to the frequencies involved.
These things make for all sorts of changes in the path and the speed over which light travels.
An analogy might help here (might). Take a particle of any kind and have it move along a path with potential assistance in its travel in one direction and then return that particle along the same path in the opposite direction. Ask the question, what is the one way speed of that particle if all you have is the total time for two path traversal and you are assuming that the particle is the one that traverses the path at a constant speed. What can you tell me about its instantaneous velocity over the path? You do not know what assistance, if any, that particle has received.
We make certain assumptions for which we cannot determine if they are true or not. To simplify our models, we take the view that our assumptions are NOT unreasonable, but we cannot test them. This is a normal state of affairs with relation to much of our scientific investigation. When we do find additional information that indicates that one or more of these assumption is potentially or actually false, we make modifications to our models and theories or we replace them entirely.
We make much ado about GR and curved space-time and that "gravity" bends light. There is an assumption here that medium changes and hence permittivity/permeability changes are not applicable or consequential in the observed path changes. The thing here is that we cannot measure those permittivity and permeability changes and assume that the light is traveling is traveling through a perfect vacuum, which we also know is false. But it "simplifies" the model and calculations.
We no longer use a geocentric model of the universe (this is effectively using Fourier Series) and we have moved over to a Heliocentric model because it is "simpler" to use. Yet, the heliocentric model is also wrong because it cannot take onto account the gravitational effects of all orbiting bodies. This gives rise to using perturbation theory. This makes the modelling much more complex and yet it too is not at all complete for it has not taken into account the motion of the sun and the orbiting bodies on the path through the galaxy. Again this gives rise to further complexity that must be taken into account.
For simplistic models, we use the heliocentric model and for short term situations, we just ignore perturbation effects of these other things. We do no less in analog circuit analysis or digital circuit analysis, orbital satellite mapping, weather forecasting, river flows, and the list goes on and on.
We use simpler models because they are "good enough" for what we are trying to do. But they will all fail once you get outside of the simplifying assumptions that underlay them. I return you to the aphorism popularised by George Box "All models are wrong, some are useful."
Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is not true? You can't have reference frame independent (which is a term that also includes orientations) Maxwell equations and anisotropic speed of light at the same time. If Maxwell equations are correct (which was already well-tested by then), speed is already the same for forward and backward propagating electromagnetic waves (=light), and there is no other spatial anisotropy either. Differing one-way speed…
You should watch the video. There is no experiment that has been done that shows the speed of light does not have a preference because every measurement sneaks in the assumption it's symmetric. This is a convention. It's called the Einstein synchronization convention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_synchronisation See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-way_speed_of_light . From the article: "Experiments…
tl;dr: coincident-events first, then labels (coordinates). [Einstein 1916, p.117 [2] although I remembered to look there only after writing all of the below]. One-way speed of light arguments are in danger of being coordinates-first, and thus insufficiently general for physics.[3]
The key word in your comment is
> directly
But why do we care? We have an abundance of indirect evidence, premised on direct tests of coordinate-independent features of our best most-fundamental theory. The two important features of (general) relativity are pointwise local Lorentz covariance -- where c is the only free parameter of the Lorentz group -- and the minimal coupling. Special relativity's Minkowski space is in this view a special static time-orientable spacetime in which we have global Poincaré invariance (c again is the only free parameter of the Poincaré group; the Lorentz group is a subgroup of the Poincaré group -- the latter includes all the spacetime translations, and in the Minkowski case the space-translation and time-translation symmetries all commute). When we go blithely parallel-transporting null vectors, this is what matters.
We can certainly write down an f(c) theory. Dicke did this in in his superb 1957 "Gravitation without a Principle of Equivalence" >https://journals.aps.org/rmp/abstract/10.1103/RevModPhys.29....? and so have several others (See Ellis or Magueijo for a review https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10714-007-0396-4> corresponding with https://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0703751> resp. https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0034-4885/66/11/R...> open access, but corresponds with https://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0305457>).
It is far from silly to write down a theory where c varies in spacetime. It is the foundation of several alternative-to-cosmic-inflation decaying-bimetric theories of the very early universe, where c eventually stabilizes to its value in our local spacetime having been a different (typically much much much -- ~30 orders of magnitude -- higher) value during the formation of primordial matter density variations. The faster speed of light allows for distant reaches of the early universe to reach the same temperature with uniformity up to the small fluctuations in the cosmic microwave background.
Of course we run into the same point you've been working in this thread: it's hard to discover the exact function on c in the early universe. We have to rely on indirect evidence, and strong gravitational lensing is useful there. SVOM https://svom.cnes.fr/en/SVOM/GP_mission.htm> is looking for Lorentz-invariance-violation (LIV)-induced modifications to the photon dispersion relation in vacuum, and is a particularly good platform for test of a Taylor-series expansion like E^2=p^2 c^2 ( 1 +- \sum_{n=1}^{\infty} a_n ), since GRBs at least somewhat escape the problem that the lowest order terms dominate at small energies, and they are distributed across the sky and at different redshifts. We are also now better equipped to study light echos (oh for a galactic supernova!) and detailed strong galactic lensing studies. Spoiler: the constraints on a spacetime-translational variation of c grow tighter with every observation. However, to fully rule out a sharp phase-change in c, we will need practical ~ 10^-15 Hz gravitational-wave astronomy. LIGO is most sensitive around 10^2 Hz; eLISA would be around 10^-2 Hz. (I am fairly sure the authors of most modern variable-speed-of-light early cosmologies knew as they were writing that they probably could hide in that hard-to-explore space through a few generations of gravitational wave observatories. One might say the same about a wide variety of recent cosmic inflation theories, too.)
In a general dynamical spacetime the notion of a two-way path is tricky. Even in Minkowski space, for a two-way signal, the return detection arrives at a different, later, point in spacetime than the outbound signal, even if the spacelike coordinates are always (0,0,0) [this is somewhat reminiscent of the twin paradox]. Outbound-and-return are two future-directed null geodesics. Your argument in this setting is equivalent to saying that we are somehow in trouble because the "outbound" and "return" null geodesics may have, without rescaling, different affinely-parametrized lengths.
In SR what we care about is that the signal is Lorentz invariant at each spacetime point where it could be sampled, even as sender and receiver/reflector are moving ultrarelativistically or are ultraboosted. Given Lorentz-invariance we can determine the three relevant points on the manifold. (Poincaré invariance means we can do this same test at any time or place in the flat space universe). Your complaint is that this is not a direct one-way measurement. OK, it's not. So what? We can in principle directly test Lorentz-invariance at any point (e.g. we can have a sparse gas with a well-understood (as in at the Standard Model of Particle Physics level) low extinction coefficient). If we have no flat space violation of Lorentz-invariance, we must have symmetry of light travel time for constant light-like separation.
In a dynamical general spacetime (Lorentz invariance -> local Lorentz invariance (LLI)), we can readily move the intended recipient of a one-way light pulse outside the reach of the light pulse itself; nature already does this for us in at least a couple of ways (metric expansion and astrophysical black holes). We can also have different delays on each arm of a two-way measurement, e.g. through Shapiro delay, around a spinning mass, or in the presence of a gravitational wave. However, at each point in the (vacuum part of the) curved spacetime [a] light obeys the massless wave equation and [b] local Lorentz invariance demands that the fraction of the wave at X propagates to a neighbouring point X' at c, and that X' must be drawn only from certain available neighbouring points.
So, really, it's not so much "what is the one-way velocity of light?" but rather "how much spacetime does a pulse of light traverse between two spacetime points?". Or in other words, we are looking for an affine parametrization on a curve of zero interval and that extremizes the length between two points on the manifold m and is constructed by parallel-propagating a tangent vector on m and in its own direction.
Consequently, I think the issue at the core of your points about measuring one-way speed of light is how to best label, with coordinates, two particular coincidence-points in a Lorentzian spacetime, rather than choosing two labels[1] (via your favourite synchronization scheme, for example) which are then used as the basis for a parametrization of a null curve. Then the question you ask is: "how can we know that the spacetime is Lorentzian?" or alternatively, "how do we know there is not some vicious additional gravitational field and vacuum polarization which makes the spacetime only seem Lorentzian?" for which experimentalists have generated a century worth of answers. The answer of how to best label two points in a Lorentzian manifold is \mu : it really depends on what and how you want to calculate. The physics here are that the two points (in your null-curve-parametrizing / one-way-light-travel-time experiment) are timelike-separated.
Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is not true? You can't have reference frame independent (which is a term that also includes orientations) Maxwell equations and anisotropic speed of light at the same time. If Maxwell equations are correct (which was already well-tested by then), speed is already the same for forward and backward propagating electromagnetic waves (=light), and there is no other spatial anisotropy either. Differing one-way speed…
You should watch the video. There is no experiment that has been done that shows the speed of light does not have a preference because every measurement sneaks in the assumption it's symmetric. This is a convention. It's called the Einstein synchronization convention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_synchronisation See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-way_speed_of_light . From the article: "Experiments…
For a (physical) relativist, the speed of light is really simple. c = 1, everywhere and everywhen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometrized_unit_system> This is because we have excellent evidence for the utility of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Riemannian_manifold#App...>, and the further astrophysically-driven demands of global hyperbolicity or at least reasonably strong causality conditions, no isometric embeddings, geodesic incompleteness, asymptotic flatness around sources, junctions in sufficiently flat space, and energy conditions. Those further demands are the basis for continuing to rely on Special Relativity in laboratory settings.
For a theoretical relativist, well, the best metric signature is probably +,+,+,...,+ (89,0). (cf. Egan's (4,0) "Riemannian General Relativity", https://www.gregegan.net/ORTHOGONAL/06/GRExtra.html>)
- --
[1] quoting your wikipedia link, "... inertial frames and coordinates are defined from the outset so that space and time coordinates as well as slow clock-transport are described isotropically". Well, yes. Establish points first then assign coordinate labels is the relativist's procedure, surely?
On this point, Earth laboratories are in general not in inertial frames, thanks to gravitation. No laboratory is in general in an inertial frame, thanks to the metric expansion of space. We can in principle extract a preferred foliation (e.g. the scale factor a, or some function on lunisolar tides) and use that as the basis for time coordinates instead. In effect this is what we do for high-redshift objects and many lunar laser ranging experiments https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/ftp/eph/planets/ioms/>[a] https://arxiv.org/abs/1606.08376> §3,§4. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10569-010-9303-5> discusses aspects of how to choose a preferred foliation (in the context of gauge freedom) in the solar system, and in the context of grinding out a results-prediction for some future LLR experiment. The goal is to be able to show that the locations of the three instruments were accurately predicted, and Lorentz-invariance is thoroughly baked in (the calculations are so exceptionally sensitive to the introduction of tiny breaking parameters in the style of SME https://arxiv.org/abs/0801.0287> that it has led to the discovery and/or better understanding of several of the features listed as parameters at [[a] LLR_Model_2020_DR.pdf §4]).
[2] https://archive.org/details/principleofrelat00eins/page/n189...>. Einstein 1916 is adapted into the arguably handier https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Foundation_of_the_General...> §9. c.f. there pages marked in square brackets [776-777]
[3] Baez: https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/einstein/node2.html> 2nd and 3rd paragraph "Preliminaries".
Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the notion that space has no preferential direction is an axiom in the theory. This was the case in special relativity, with a flat space-time. In general relativity, space-time is curved and there are locally special directions. The laws of Physics still do not define special directions a priori. It is quite fundamental actually, and so far everything behaves as expected, at least in this respect. It is not as muc…
If you shine a light on a detector, you measure the time it takes to travel both legs. What is being said is that all we can know is the average time from when it leaves us to when it gets back to us (i.e. the sensor results). It could well be the same magnitude each direction or it could be instantaneous one way and 1/2 c back the other or any other combination of values as long as the average of the two way measure…
> If you shine a light on a detector, you measure the time it takes to travel both legs.
reflector, surely, rather than detector? Your director can record a timestamp locally while you and your flashlight are across the room. You don't need two legs.
The main objection upthread is that while your flashlight's "on" switch can also record a timestamp within the flashlight, synchronizing the flashlight's time to the detector's time so that one can compare the timestamps after the experiment is done (or days later, or weeks later, again and again) is not feasible within the framework of Special Relativity. Therefore if one has confidence in one's local timestamps, one can compare them when measuring the round trip of the flashlight beam reflected off a mirror across the room back onto a detector mounted right beside the flashlight's bulb, inside the flashlight.
However, nature provides several gravitationally-driven systems which can provide a "preferred foliation", or a naturally-produced easily-compared timestamp. Examples include fancy sundials (including observations of millisecond pulsars), lunisolar tides, and the cosmological scale factor. These can be recovered independently in a (probably pretty large) flashlight and the detector looking for the light from the flashlight. Timestamps can then be compared with greater precision than available via Special Relativity synchronization methods.
Indeed, this is something that has been worked on in lunar-ranging experiments over the past decades. Can we use detailed knowledge of the solar system to predict a signal aimed Earthward by a 21st century space probe on or very near the moon as well as a signal launched from Earth to a reflector on the moon that is picked up by a detector on Earth? It turns out we can, to good precision!
> Final note
"c" is the free parameter of the Lorentz group, which is the fundamental isometry group of Special Relativity (and quantum electrodynamics and the Standard Model of particle physics). "c" is also a constant in the Einstein Field Equations of General Relativity, and there is a mathematical connection between that and Special Relativity.
In both theories, unless interfered with by interaction with matter, massless objects are constrained to move, obligatorily, from one spacetime point to another point from a restricted set of neighbours. These points are on the surface of a null cone.
Light is experimentally massless, so null curves are often called lightlike curves, null cones are usually called light cones, and so on. However, electromagnetic radiation is not the only massless species in the cosmos.
> very specific environment
An excellent approximation of vacuum (very long mean free paths for electromagnetic radiation at all frequencies) dominates the observable universe, so the permeability and permittivity of free space is a good choice except in very specific environments (planet-bound electrical engineering laboratories and copper wires are out-volumed by intergalactic, or even interplanetary, space by a lot). In those matter-rich environments, the mean free path of light is low. The constant c remains the same in such matter-rich environments, but electromagnetic radiation passing through them does not propagate at c.
> the value that we put as c
is exactly 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometrized_unit_system>