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Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined

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Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here it is https://science.howstuffworks.com/gyroscope.htm#pt2 I've never thought much of it.

The misleading and faulty explanation in this link talks about the “desire” of a point on the wheel to move in a certain direction. Now that’s some magical thinking.

I haven't read the Dennett article but in this specific context, "desire" just seems like a simple proxy for momentum. What am I missing?

Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined

#72
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take a line between the two sides from the theoretical border There is no "border" to our universe. The fact that you have trouble visualizing such models does not mean they don't exist.

There is an "effective" border because of speed of light limits. Technically we are "at the center" of our intractable universe.

> Technically we are "at the center" of our intractable universe.

We are at the center of our observable universe, yes, but that fact does not support any of the claims I have been responding to in this thread.

Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined

#73

The most eye-opening thing I've learned about relativity in the past few years is that the notion that space has no preferential direction is an axiom in the theory. There's nothing about the way we measure the speed of light that would disambiguate if light traveled instantaneously in one direction and at half the measured speed of light in the other. We just don't have a way to know, because time measurements requi…

> the notion that space has no preferential direction is an axiom in the theory.

This was the case in special relativity, with a flat space-time. In general relativity, space-time is curved and there are locally special directions. The laws of Physics still do not define special directions a priori. It is quite fundamental actually, and so far everything behaves as expected, at least in this respect. It is not as much an axiom as a consequence of Maxwell’s equations, from which we can deduce that light has a well-defined velocity in vacuum, irrespective of location or direction.

> There's nothing about the way we measure the speed of light that would disambiguate if light traveled instantaneously in one direction and at half the measured speed of light in the other.

There is something I don’t get here. If we shine a light on a detector, we can measure the time the light takes to reach the detector. Are you saying that the light hits the detector instantly, and then goes back to the source, or that the detector is the source and the light comes back to it after hitting the source instantly?

In practice, the speed of light does not depend on direction, as far as we can measure.

Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined

#74

From a layman's perspevtive I've never understood the existence of angular momentum as anything other than a mental model or abstraction. My intuition tells me that all momentum is only linear (except maybe at the fundamental particle level), and perceived rotation is really just a huge amount of linear interactions by individual particles that make up a larger object. This is similar to how a gas is not really a sin…

It's very decidedly not an abstraction on linear momentum. It's a conserved quantity just like any other. Light has angular momentum even when travelling in a straight line. Anything with spin does even when stopped. In physics there is a concept known as symmetry. Any way you can swap around your variables without influencing the answers corresponds to a way in which the laws of physics are symmetric (or a way someo…

Is that the _same_ angular momentum, or just the same term used for something different? My understanding is that "spin" isn't really anything necessarily spinning and it's more just an analogy for a property of subatomic particles that doesn't exactly correspond to a concept at the macro level.

Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined

#75
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't that the whole idea behind Michelson-Morley ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_exper... )?

Yes, that is an example of a measurement of the two-way speed of light. What is impossible, however, is a measurement of the one-way speed of light.

This does not imply that the speed of light could depend on direction, though. If that were the case, we could see it by rotating a simple Michelson interferometer.

Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined

#76

The most eye-opening thing I've learned about relativity in the past few years is that the notion that space has no preferential direction is an axiom in the theory. There's nothing about the way we measure the speed of light that would disambiguate if light traveled instantaneously in one direction and at half the measured speed of light in the other. We just don't have a way to know, because time measurements requi…

Veritasium has a nice video about it on YouTube. We can only measure the average back and forth speed of light.

> Veritasium has a nice video about it on YouTube.

He is often wrong in subtle and not—subtle ways, though. In this case, regardless of the issue of one-way measurements of c, his sources do not really support an anisotropy in the speed of light.

His video was mentioned already 5 or 6 times here. Isn’t here anything better at all?

Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined

#77

The most eye-opening thing I've learned about relativity in the past few years is that the notion that space has no preferential direction is an axiom in the theory. There's nothing about the way we measure the speed of light that would disambiguate if light traveled instantaneously in one direction and at half the measured speed of light in the other. We just don't have a way to know, because time measurements requi…

> the notion that space has no preferential direction is an axiom in the theory. This was the case in special relativity, with a flat space-time. In general relativity, space-time is curved and there are locally special directions. The laws of Physics still do not define special directions a priori. It is quite fundamental actually, and so far everything behaves as expected, at least in this respect. It is not as muc…

If you shine a light on a detector, you measure the time it takes to travel both legs. What is being said is that all we can know is the average time from when it leaves us to when it gets back to us (i.e. the sensor results).

It could well be the same magnitude each direction or it could be instantaneous one way and 1/2 c back the other or any other combination of values as long as the average of the two way measurement is c.

Final note: the value that we put as c is only true in a very specific environment. It depends on the characteristics of the medium through which light is traveling as to what we will measure as the average two way speed. This is a consequence of the permeability and the permittivity of the medium through which the light is traveling. This is standard electrical engineering fare.

Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined

#78
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've never actually measured the speed of light in one direction. It's impossible. Vertasium video on the subject - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTn6Ewhb27k

If it were true that the speed of light is different in different directions, the CMB would look completely different than it does. This was a major oversight in Veritasium's video.

Not at all. You are applying an assumption for which you cannot actually determine is true or false. That assumption is that we could measure the differences because we would see a "linear" flow (using the word linear is the sense that it is anything that is not radially determined). What it boils down to is that it is not a measurable quantity (the one way speed of light).

Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined

#79
post #36
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a great axiom until it isn't. One thing I still cannot visualize is exapanding universe. If there is an expanstion then there must be a shape and then there must be a center and then must be one direction that is not exactly same as another because expansion rates are different. I read that universe expands same everywhere and there is no "center" which is very hard to visualize but it is a requirement for this…

> If there is an expanstion then there must be a shape and then there must be a center However intuitively plausible this seems to you, it's still false. The fact that our intuitive visualization capabilities cannot directly visualize the mathematical entities involved does not change that.

Mathematics is a simplification methodology and doesn't necessarily match what actually exists. So to say that the original comment is "false" means that you have to "prove" that it is false in the sense of the logical and mathematical axioms you use.

If those axioms are changed, you get a different logical and mathematical outcome.

Re: Mass and angular momentum, left ambiguous by Einstein, get defined

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a link to a resource on this or was it just in person? I'd love to hear the intuition you describe!

Here it is https://science.howstuffworks.com/gyroscope.htm#pt2 I've never thought much of it.

What an awful site on mobile.
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