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Pursuing the Reunification of Home and Work

americancompass.org

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Re: Pursuing the Reunification of Home and Work

#31

Post by fleddr »

sgt wrote: post #23
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cynical people may think of it as a semi-old-fashioned model, but I couldn't disagree more. I think it's beautiful for one parent to set aside more time for raising children. The part that's old-fashioned is the assumption that this person will be the mother. Your comment makes it sound like full-time mothers and part-time fathers are still very uncommon.

Ours is 1.5 years old now, and I can promise you there's some things that the mother should do, or be the most involved in. Some things us guys are just a bit clueless about. One can go deeply into this but essentially it's about the emotional bond and "reading" your child, in addition to the purely biological like breastfeeding.

I 100% agree and I thank you for calling things what they are.

Re: Pursuing the Reunification of Home and Work

#32

Post by fleddr »

numbers_guy wrote: post #12
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cynical people may think of it as a semi-old-fashioned model, but I couldn't disagree more. I think it's beautiful for one parent to set aside more time for raising children. The part that's old-fashioned is the assumption that this person will be the mother. Your comment makes it sound like full-time mothers and part-time fathers are still very uncommon.

Doesn't "old fashioned" imply that it goes against the contemporary expectation? Yet the expectation is still the same as it ever was. Not sure why people like you want to pretend like the majority of women would ever be happy with a stay-at-home-husband.

I'm not pretending that at all. Women don't want stay-at-home-husbands. A particular movement of women may claim that or believe it is right, but that doesn't make it true.

Re: Pursuing the Reunification of Home and Work

#33

Post by fleddr »

ledauphin wrote: post #29
fleddr wrote: post #5

"Netherlands enjoy the highest subjective measure of life satisfaction among all OECD countries. Perhaps one reason is that their mothers are also among the most likely to work part-time." I'm from the Netherlands and can confirm that the 1.5 model is very common. Typically the man has the full-time job and the wife works part-time and combines it with care for the children on the other days. On days where both paren…

this is either a nitpick about language or a sweeping statement about humanity (let the reader decide), but as I see it, it's unhelpful to posit a dichotomy between "society" and "family". A parent caring for children _is_ contributing to society - society is made of people, and those people don't spring fully-formed from anyone's head! I don't really disagree with the main point of your comment, but I think this dis…

Not to worry, I had no intention to make that distinction, it was clumsy phrasing, this isn't my first language.

To be clear, there's nothing more meaningful than being a mother. So yes, a full-time mother is contributing to society greatly.

Re: Pursuing the Reunification of Home and Work

#34

Post by fleddr »

emptysongglass wrote: post #16
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cynical people may think of it as a semi-old-fashioned model, but I couldn't disagree more. I think it's beautiful for one parent to set aside more time for raising children. The part that's old-fashioned is the assumption that this person will be the mother. Your comment makes it sound like full-time mothers and part-time fathers are still very uncommon.

There was a study, which I can't find right now so I'm hoping another person will help me out with the citation, that showed women were less satisfied with stay-at-home men than vice versa. Anecdotally, once I fully took on the duties of breadwinner our relationship really transformed into the healthiest and most stable it's ever been. She pursues her creative passions and I get the joy of watching her grow. She does…

"There was a study, which I can't find right now so I'm hoping another person will help me out with the citation, that showed women were less satisfied with stay-at-home men than vice versa."

There's a million studies that conclude that women almost exclusively select same level or preferably upwards, whilst men have more of a "any love is good love" selection mechanism, to dramatize a little. Both behaviors align 100% with biological incentives.

The full-time career woman does not want Joe Average, minimum wage earner that has ample time to take care of kids and the home. The feminist "dream" of this role reversal could be achieved tomorrow as there's millions of men like that. But they're fully ignored.

The second half of your comment escalates in various directions. I do agree though, that line of politics is incredible regressive.

Re: Pursuing the Reunification of Home and Work

#35

Post by Wowfunhappy »

klipt wrote: post #18
emptysongglass wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a study, which I can't find right now so I'm hoping another person will help me out with the citation, that showed women were less satisfied with stay-at-home men than vice versa. Anecdotally, once I fully took on the duties of breadwinner our relationship really transformed into the healthiest and most stable it's ever been. She pursues her creative passions and I get the joy of watching her grow. She does…

> Anecdotally, once I fully took on the duties of breadwinner our relationship really transformed into the healthiest and most stable it's ever been. She pursues her creative passions and I get the joy of watching her grow. The problem here is the power imbalance. At least in the US, she has the power to divorce you at any time for no reason and date a different man, and you still have to support her with alimony/chi…

I'm actually pretty sure there are stay-at-home Dads who receive alimony, the law works both ways.

Re: Pursuing the Reunification of Home and Work

#36

Post by klipt »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #35
klipt wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anecdotally, once I fully took on the duties of breadwinner our relationship really transformed into the healthiest and most stable it's ever been. She pursues her creative passions and I get the joy of watching her grow. The problem here is the power imbalance. At least in the US, she has the power to divorce you at any time for no reason and date a different man, and you still have to support her with alimony/chi…

I'm actually pretty sure there are stay-at-home Dads who receive alimony, the law works both ways.

That's why I said

> It's a terrible deal for the breadwinner (generally the man)

It's a terrible deal for women breadwinners with stay at home husband too, but they're a minority of breadwinners.

Re: Pursuing the Reunification of Home and Work

#37

Post by afpx »

fleddr wrote: post #34
emptysongglass wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a study, which I can't find right now so I'm hoping another person will help me out with the citation, that showed women were less satisfied with stay-at-home men than vice versa. Anecdotally, once I fully took on the duties of breadwinner our relationship really transformed into the healthiest and most stable it's ever been. She pursues her creative passions and I get the joy of watching her grow. She does…

"There was a study, which I can't find right now so I'm hoping another person will help me out with the citation, that showed women were less satisfied with stay-at-home men than vice versa." There's a million studies that conclude that women almost exclusively select same level or preferably upwards, whilst men have more of a "any love is good love" selection mechanism, to dramatize a little. Both behaviors align 10…

I was the primary parent for many years, and I regret doing it. The stigma of being a stay-at-home dad is just too extreme. First, it is nigh impossible to find parenting groups that allow men. So, you're stuck parenting solo without community support. Then, my wife would constantly have to defend me to her parents and her group of adamant feminists. They would ask questions implying that my status is low or that I was some sort of deadbeat. I was doing 90% of the housework and parenting. It kind of sucked for many years.

Re: Pursuing the Reunification of Home and Work

#38

Post by fleddr »

afpx wrote: post #37
fleddr wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There was a study, which I can't find right now so I'm hoping another person will help me out with the citation, that showed women were less satisfied with stay-at-home men than vice versa." There's a million studies that conclude that women almost exclusively select same level or preferably upwards, whilst men have more of a "any love is good love" selection mechanism, to dramatize a little. Both behaviors align 10…

I was the primary parent for many years, and I regret doing it. The stigma of being a stay-at-home dad is just too extreme. First, it is nigh impossible to find parenting groups that allow men. So, you're stuck parenting solo without community support. Then, my wife would constantly have to defend me to her parents and her group of adamant feminists. They would ask questions implying that my status is low or that I w…

Thanks for sharing. Yes, the "patriarchy" is female.

I switched to a 4 day work week 10 years ago, unrelated to children (we don't have them). On the 5th day I work on my personal projects. To this day I have to "explain" it, even to friends and family. Even though I make plenty in those 4 days and we have everything we need and more.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of women here work part-time even before having children. No questions asked.

The male purpose is clear, and we should stop pretending otherwise.

Re: Pursuing the Reunification of Home and Work

#39

Post by satyrnein »

klipt wrote: post #18
emptysongglass wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a study, which I can't find right now so I'm hoping another person will help me out with the citation, that showed women were less satisfied with stay-at-home men than vice versa. Anecdotally, once I fully took on the duties of breadwinner our relationship really transformed into the healthiest and most stable it's ever been. She pursues her creative passions and I get the joy of watching her grow. She does…

> Anecdotally, once I fully took on the duties of breadwinner our relationship really transformed into the healthiest and most stable it's ever been. She pursues her creative passions and I get the joy of watching her grow. The problem here is the power imbalance. At least in the US, she has the power to divorce you at any time for no reason and date a different man, and you still have to support her with alimony/chi…

You think the stay-at-home partner has all the power?! Perhaps you have never talked to a woman trapped in an unhappy marriage.

Re: Pursuing the Reunification of Home and Work

#40

Post by klipt »

satyrnein wrote: post #39
klipt wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anecdotally, once I fully took on the duties of breadwinner our relationship really transformed into the healthiest and most stable it's ever been. She pursues her creative passions and I get the joy of watching her grow. The problem here is the power imbalance. At least in the US, she has the power to divorce you at any time for no reason and date a different man, and you still have to support her with alimony/chi…

You think the stay-at-home partner has all the power?! Perhaps you have never talked to a woman trapped in an unhappy marriage.

I never said all the power, but the fact that you'll be the one getting paid in a divorce, rather than the one doing the paying, certainly makes divorce a more economically attractive option to you than to your breadwinner partner.
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