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Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

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Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#31

Post by 7952 »

globalise83 wrote: post #10
zabzonk wrote: post #2

What I have always wondered about is why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier? Or put it this way: when was the folded paper (or your material here) airplane invented, and by whom? Then, why not make it bigger?

I often wonder the same. As someone with a hobby of making unpowered gliders from balsa wood and laminating sheets, I often wonder why such simple contraptions (I can make very nice gliders with around 20 pieces of wood and one sheet) weren't discovered using easily available woods and paper many centuries ago and extrapolated to bigger machines with fabric and wooden struts. Seems that the raw materials would have b…

Aeroplanes rely on light and strong materials with a high power to weight ratio energy source. Without that it is difficult to make the physics work. The internal combustion engine made it more possible.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#32

Post by dredmorbius »

goto11 wrote: post #28
zabzonk wrote: post #2

What I have always wondered about is why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier? Or put it this way: when was the folded paper (or your material here) airplane invented, and by whom? Then, why not make it bigger?

Probably because sustained heavier-than-air flight requires an engine. So same reason the car was not invented earlier - a coal-powered steam engine is too heavy.

Steam has other disadvantages.

It's quite good at steady-power output. Throttle response is poor.

Both automobiles and aircraft operate with quite variable power requirements. Though at least for long-range air travel, once the take-off / climb portion of flight has been completed, cruise is typically at a fairly constant setting.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#34

Post by dredmorbius »

zabzonk wrote: post #13
morelisp wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reliable steering requires aerodynamics requires quite a lot of mathematical development, plus considerable precision engineering. And it's extremely dangerous, a lot of people did die trying to make steerable kites.

> quite a lot of mathematical development, plus considerable precision engineering Not sure the Wright brothers would be with you on this - neither were maths guys and their aircraft were hardly precision-built.

The Wrights did extensive experimentation, on both models an full-sized prototypes. They built the first wind tunnel and developed calculations for lift and propeller thrust.

They also practiced fairly rapid design iteration, trying out ideas and adapting to actual experience. What they arrived at worked, though it was far from ideal and doesn't much resemble modern aircraft (beyond the notion of wings and the rough principles of control surfaces). Once other designers / engineers entered the field, and with more reliable engines, further iteration advanced rapidly.

Military aircraft played a significant role in WWI, only a decade after the Wright's first powered flight.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#35

Post by andrepd »

napier wrote: post #33

Quoted post unavailable.

Absolutely. Christian monks in particular were a force of strong obscurantism, from the 300s when they gained power in the Roman Empire and for the millennium that followed.

The picture we have in our minds of the scholar monk copying the Greek classics was only really true starting with the 1200s, not earlier.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#37

Post by magpi3 »

Jensson wrote: post #5
zabzonk wrote: post #2

What I have always wondered about is why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier? Or put it this way: when was the folded paper (or your material here) airplane invented, and by whom? Then, why not make it bigger?

They lacked the physics theory to make planes stable enough to carry a load, and nobody wants to experiment throwing themselves out over a cliff with prototype wings that will likely get them killed.

He wasn't testing wings, but you make me think of this poor, brave man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Reichelt#Eiffel_Tower_ju...

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#38

Post by stevenjgarner »

zabzonk wrote: post #2

What I have always wondered about is why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier? Or put it this way: when was the folded paper (or your material here) airplane invented, and by whom? Then, why not make it bigger?

What amazes me about heavier than air flight is that it was invented all over the planet at virtually the same time by all kinds of unrelated people who had no connection or communication with or little knowledge of one another. Sure here in the US we ethnocentrically recite the Kitty Hawk event of the Wright Brothers as if it appeared in a vacuum out of nowhere. But in reality, heavier than air flight was invented simultaneously (by the standards of the time) at multiple places all over the world from New Zealand (March 1903) [1] to the USA (December 1903) [2]. It's as if human consciousness just exploded with a new-found ability to fly all over the earth all at once.

Closer examination shows that like most human inventions, these breakthrough moments are the final incremental accumulation of ideas that were a long-time coming. In the case of flight, there were centuries of lighter than air flying methods based on buoyancy and displacement [3]. Then gradually an understanding of fixed wing aerodynamics evolved (e.g. the impressive work of people like George Cayley [4] and Otto Lilienthal [5]). It was the parallel development of combustion engines that made the Kitty Hawk and Waitohi moments eventually possible (which I think might really the answer to your question "why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier?"). While the invention of the steam engine gave rise to the entire industrial revolution, piston steam engines of the time were too heavy to power flight. The internal combustion engine was finally applied to the automobile by Karl Benz in 1885 [6] and within the relatively short span of 18 years had evolved to the point where powering an aerodynamic surface was feasible. Just 66 years later man walked on the moon.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pearse

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_flying_machines

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cayley

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Lilienthal

[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Benz

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#39

Post by slightknack »

zabzonk wrote: post #13
morelisp wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reliable steering requires aerodynamics requires quite a lot of mathematical development, plus considerable precision engineering. And it's extremely dangerous, a lot of people did die trying to make steerable kites.

> quite a lot of mathematical development, plus considerable precision engineering Not sure the Wright brothers would be with you on this - neither were maths guys and their aircraft were hardly precision-built.

> He identified the four forces which act on a heavier-than-air flying vehicle: weight, lift, drag and thrust. [...] He also designed the first glider reliably reported to carry a human aloft. He correctly predicted that sustained flight would not occur until a lightweight engine was developed to provide adequate thrust and lift. The Wright brothers acknowledged his importance to the development of aviation.

— https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cayley

I think by the time the Wright brothers came around, the general theory for powered flight was in place. The Wright Flyer was precision engineered, compared to most 'kites' that came before it. It's not every day you see an internal combustion engine on a kite.

Re: Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

#40

Post by terhechte »

The Greek philosoper Hero of Alexandria actually invented something close to a steam engine in the 1st century BE [1]. Whenever I think about "obvious" inventions which happened quite late in our civilization, I remember "The road not taken", a fantastic short story that plays with this idea. [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Not_Taken_(short_stor...

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