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Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

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Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#161
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does work, though. Nest's program pre-cools to get you through the hottest hours without having to kick on the AC, moving some of the region's demand from the 4-6pm slot to the 2-4pm slot. I find myself going "huh, it's getting a little warm" at about 5:45pm, at which point I check and remember it's a "Rush Hour" session.

Does precooking really work? I’d assume it would have to cool my house down below 65 to keep it below 80 all afternoon. 111+ days are brutal in certain rooms even with both ACs set to 76.

The last 30 years have been a renaissance of insulation and energy efficiency. Pre cooling, fan recirculation, humidity consideration, time of use observance may only delay/reduce a few cycles per house per day, but in aggregate, that's significant.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#162

Don't smart thermostats take into account how long it takes to change temperature? Mine certainly does. Since each building will have different properties, they effectively have jitter already. I therefore don't see this as an issue.

Energy companies like to complain about demand spikes instead of doing their job and managing the grid properly. Like if bakeries were complaining that they have to get up at 5 to bake bread because people want it in the morning or something.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#163
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any actual numbers for what is up to code insulation in California? California is a very temperate climate. I wouldn't exactly expect their code to have the highest insulation requirements. Also, building codes should be considered the minimum. I am keenly aware of how much thermal mass walls hold. My apartment is 3 external walls that are constructed pretty much only of a few inches of concrete, bare. Th…

>Do you have any actual numbers for what is up to code insulation in California? California is a very temperate climate. I wouldn't exactly expect their code to have the highest insulation requirements. R-15 for 2x4 or R-21 for 2x6. Not highest numbers in USA I guess and after you buy house that already "exists", it's expensive to change it. >I am keenly aware of how much thermal mass walls hold. My apartment is 3 ex…

> my room wall on the outside hits 170F i think

That seems unbelievable! Is that a typo?

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#164
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you also recommend that people don’t live anywhere it snows? I mean, heating up in winter uses even more energy than cooling down in summer.

It's funny that I have seen several anti A/C articles and several pro Heat Pump articles in recent times, do you think they know these are the same things in reverse? At least A/C is often used in sunny locales were solar can be used effectively.

Were they from the same people?

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#165
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you live? I'm just curious because I can't imagine living at 78F anymore.

I'm not OP but I live in Washington DC, where our summers are definitely hot and humid. I keep my apartment around 78F to 80F. I use a dehumidifier to keep relative humidity around 50-55%, which corresponds to a dew point of ~60F which is low enough to still feel comfortable instead of "sticky". On especially hot days, I will raise the setpoint higher, and use a small fan to circulate air around where I am spending t…

A dehumidifier is essentially an air conditioner that dumps heat back into your living space.

What you are doing sounds inefficient.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#166

Don't smart thermostats take into account how long it takes to change temperature? Mine certainly does. Since each building will have different properties, they effectively have jitter already. I therefore don't see this as an issue.

There will certainly be some jitter, but it'll be like rush-hour traffic. Sure, some people get in a little earlier or later and they leave from different points, but the result is that we still have traffic that peaks. I don't think the issue is that everyone is turning it on at the same time.

For example, let's say that people have dumb thermostats and they turn them down 2 degrees overnight - because you don't want to turn it down too aggressively since it won't warm the place before you wake. They wake up and turn them up 2 degrees. There's jitter so it's not all at once. The home heats up over the next 20 minutes and the heating turns off. Let's assume that everyone wakes up evenly distributed between 6am and 7am. The grid is handling 1/3rd of customers (or less) at any given time. By minute 20, 1/3rd have turned on their heat, but by minute 21 the first 1/60th of customers have their systems turn off.

By contrast, let's say that people have smart thermostats and they turn them down 6 degrees overnight. The thermostats likewise introduce jitter and we'll say they evenly distribute over a 1 hour period. Given the greater amount that they need to warm the place, they'll each be on longer - let's say for an hour even though degrees aren't linear. Half of them start in the first half of the hour so by minute 30, you're dealing with half of the customers running their heat - but because there's longer to go to heat up a place 6 degrees, none of them are shutting off. At minute 31, now 31/60ths of customers are running their heat. Then it's 32/60ths. This continues until we're at all customers with the heat on simultaneously. We'll be at 50/60ths usage for 20 minutes which is 2.5x more load than the other example.

This principle holds regardless of different building properties or increased jitter. A greater percentage of people will have their heating systems on at any given time in the morning due to this.

This is important because it means that it increases the likelihood that utilities need to run so-called "peaker plants" that are more costly to operate and pollute more to handle the load.

Sometimes utility companies offer incentives around avoiding this problem. I believe some California utilities have incentives for charging your electric car overnight when the load on the grid is minimal - because it's cheaper for the electric company to supply electricity then. Likewise, it would be cheaper for the electric company to supply electricity for heating then. Some electric companies have off-peak rates. Some electric companies have incentive programs where you can enroll your smart thermostat with them and they can shut off your AC for an hour when they're trying to shed load (you can override it, but it can help them shed load from lots of people who don't notice a degree or two change).

No, everyone won't be turning on their heating at the same time. However, if everyones smart thermostats run the heating system for 2 hours in the morning rather than 20 minutes in the morning because they more aggressively manage the overnight temperature, there's going to be a lot more overlapping running. This usage will overlap with other peak-hour usage like hot water heaters, toasters, microwaves, stoves, and businesses opening up - compared with overnight heat usage when businesses are closed, people aren't showering or making food, etc.

The answer is probably smarter smart thermostats. They turn themselves down overnight, but then the electric company manages the overnight temperature so that they don't face a morning rush to heat and have to use peaker plants. This would be done with consent of the users and within ranges specified by the users and to the user's benefit in terms of saving money - ie. the person wouldn't have to pay more just because their heat was kept a bit higher overnight and it wouldn't be kept above their comfort level. Likewise, users could opt into a program where they might be able to save money (say $5-10/mo) with the note that during peak times their home might heat up more slowly than it otherwise would - if it would normally take an hour to go from 60F to 68F, maybe it takes 1.5 or 1.75 hours. Again, that would allow the utility company to shed load while not inconveniencing consumers too much and providing adequate compensation for what is an inconvenience.

Electrifying our heating can mean that our heat starts coming from sources like wind and solar rather than gas and oil. However, it'll also provide some challenges around peak-time usage. These aren't insurmountable problems, but they do exist.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nest has an energy saving feature that feels like it is trying to boil the frog. We normally keep the thermostat at 78F (~25.5C), but over the course of a couple of weeks it ticked it up to 79F, then 80, then 81, and now 82F (~28C). I had to go in and manually adjust the schedule to get it back to something reasonable.

Where do you live? I'm just curious because I can't imagine living at 78F anymore.

78 at my thermostat means some rooms in the upper floor might be 84+!

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence the educational ad campaign to inform and inspire change. It is just for the home anyway, not public restrooms. And at the end of the day, even if the vast majority find it disgusting, increasing water/sewage prices will force the change sooner or later.

that is so patronizing. you can't "educate" when people find something disgusting and saying that's "educating" is arrogant. like if that's objectively people's preferences you can't say your preference is right and therefore you're "educating" them. and there's good reason, it still smells. so no imma keep flushing it.

Obviously if it smells, you should flush. But in my experience, my urine in the toilet bowl never smells outside of when I eat asparagus. Perhaps it is a sign to drink more water?

The education is also about water not being an unlimited resource. I have no idea how educating or reminding people of that is patronizing or arrogant, but to each their own.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nest has an energy saving feature that feels like it is trying to boil the frog. We normally keep the thermostat at 78F (~25.5C), but over the course of a couple of weeks it ticked it up to 79F, then 80, then 81, and now 82F (~28C). I had to go in and manually adjust the schedule to get it back to something reasonable.

Where do you live? I'm just curious because I can't imagine living at 78F anymore.

Seems pretty normal to me. Maybe not as refreshing if you come in out of working in the heat, but fine for being a desk jockey.

Temperature Comfort is largely a learned behavior in my humble opinion

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nest has an energy saving feature that feels like it is trying to boil the frog. We normally keep the thermostat at 78F (~25.5C), but over the course of a couple of weeks it ticked it up to 79F, then 80, then 81, and now 82F (~28C). I had to go in and manually adjust the schedule to get it back to something reasonable.

Where do you live? I'm just curious because I can't imagine living at 78F anymore.

In Wisconsin we set the AC to 78 in the summer. We tried doing that when we moved to Florida. Couldn't do it. Had to go down to 72, 74 max, because of the humidity. There's just too much moisture in the air and we have to set the thermostat that low to make sure it gets removed from the air.
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