Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids • Hacker News Board

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#151

Post by kennywinker » Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 9:33 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #139

kennywinker wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for one thing people will often do for free things they wouldn’t do for money. Imagine choosing between “i will pay you $10 to come to my party” and “i’m having a party, will you come?”.

Parties are supposed to be fun, so if someone offers to pay you to come to a party, that sends a signal that the party is not, in fact, going to be fun at all--otherwise, why would they pay you? On the other hand, paper straws are a shitty product that are unsuitable for use, but if I was offered a significant discount on beverages that were served with them...well, I wouldn't take it, but I could imagine someone who…

See, what you said is exactly the problem i have with mainstream climate solutions. The choice shouldn’t be paper straws vs plastic straws. The choice should be no straws vs straws. Similarly, the question shouldn’t be “can I run a/c slightly off peak” rather it should be “how can I run less a/c”. This applies all over the place. Electric cars have lifetime emissions that are lower, but in the same ballpark as ICE cars - if everyone switches to electric and changes nothing else, we still have climate change.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#152

Post by tguvot » Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 9:33 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #143

tguvot wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i have walls insulated according to california build code. it's not really possible to add more insulation to them, unless you rip them off and do spray in insulation. insulated attic with radiant barrier and insulated floors. i just checked with IR camera, most of surfaces in the house are now 22C-24C. After a few days of 40+C walls ill go to 25-26. some walls (south side of house) even higher. There are few little…

Do you have any actual numbers for what is up to code insulation in California? California is a very temperate climate. I wouldn't exactly expect their code to have the highest insulation requirements. Also, building codes should be considered the minimum. I am keenly aware of how much thermal mass walls hold. My apartment is 3 external walls that are constructed pretty much only of a few inches of concrete, bare. Th…

>Do you have any actual numbers for what is up to code insulation in California? California is a very temperate climate. I wouldn't exactly expect their code to have the highest insulation requirements.

R-15 for 2x4 or R-21 for 2x6. Not highest numbers in USA I guess and after you buy house that already "exists", it's expensive to change it.

>I am keenly aware of how much thermal mass walls hold. My apartment is 3 external walls that are constructed pretty much only of a few inches of concrete, bare. The result is that after a full day of summer sun, even though it drops to 64 degrees outside at night, my air conditioner cannot keep it 76 degrees or lower inside. It's crazy. It's worse in the winter when I can feel the walls sucking heat out of my apartment.

Whole house fan is the way to go. If you can't install one, I think a couple of strategically placed window fans over night to create some air flow through the house might work better than AC

I did some research on preventing walls from getting too hot (my room wall on the outside hits 170F i think). Narrowed it to

- Transparent paint with some particles that reflect sun/reduce heat gain

- Awning

- Shade sail

- Trellis and grow some vine to cover the wall.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#153

Post by jandrese » Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 9:33 PM UTC

google234123 wrote: post #103

LazyMans wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you live? I'm just curious because I can't imagine living at 78F anymore.

78-80 doesn't feel to bad in a dry climate imo

I live in a fairly humid area, but the AC helps to drain the moisture out of the air so it's still livable. Ceiling fans on a low setting can also help you feel comfortable, especially if you don't have the sun shining on you.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#154

Post by jffry » Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 9:33 PM UTC

LazyMans wrote: post #86

jandrese wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nest has an energy saving feature that feels like it is trying to boil the frog. We normally keep the thermostat at 78F (~25.5C), but over the course of a couple of weeks it ticked it up to 79F, then 80, then 81, and now 82F (~28C). I had to go in and manually adjust the schedule to get it back to something reasonable.

Where do you live? I'm just curious because I can't imagine living at 78F anymore.

I'm not OP but I live in Washington DC, where our summers are definitely hot and humid. I keep my apartment around 78F to 80F. I use a dehumidifier to keep relative humidity around 50-55%, which corresponds to a dew point of ~60F which is low enough to still feel comfortable instead of "sticky".

On especially hot days, I will raise the setpoint higher, and use a small fan to circulate air around where I am spending time, which is very effective when humidity is not too high.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#155

Post by InitialLastName » Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 9:38 PM UTC

delecti wrote: post #16

kevincox wrote: post #3

How is this different from a regular timer thermostat which turns on exactly at the set time?

I think thermostats "smarter" than a simple bimetallic strip were relatively rare before modern internet connected thermostats.

Until recently, most of the thermostats I've seen in newish buildings (in US northeast) since I've been aware of thermostats (1995?) have been digital with clocks and timers.

Older buildings have had the electromechanical thermostats you describe.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#156

Post by aaron695 » Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 9:39 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #114

Probably makes more sense to incentivize residential batteries that can help take the strain. The batteries can charge when there's a surplus of power on the grid, and then absorb the load when everyone turns on the heat/AC at the same time.

No post body was provided.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#157

Post by collegeburner » Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 9:40 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #118

KoftaBob wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah very very few people are going to follow that, the vast majority will find the idea disgusting and not nearly beneficial enough to justify it.

Hence the educational ad campaign to inform and inspire change. It is just for the home anyway, not public restrooms. And at the end of the day, even if the vast majority find it disgusting, increasing water/sewage prices will force the change sooner or later.

that is so patronizing. you can't "educate" when people find something disgusting and saying that's "educating" is arrogant. like if that's objectively people's preferences you can't say your preference is right and therefore you're "educating" them. and there's good reason, it still smells. so no imma keep flushing it.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#158

Post by indigomm » Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 9:43 PM UTC

Don't smart thermostats take into account how long it takes to change temperature? Mine certainly does. Since each building will have different properties, they effectively have jitter already. I therefore don't see this as an issue.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#159

Post by naasking » Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 9:47 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #150

naasking wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if they're all on by 6:30, that gives the power plant time to ramp up production to meet demand from 5:30-6:30. If everything is synchronized and everyone in a region starts drawing lots of power at the exact same time, the line voltage on the grid will suddenly drop below safety thresholds and could trigger a brownout for that whole region. The point being, randomizing power draw over a period of time allows th…

> that gives the power plant time to ramp up production to meet demand But the capacity isn't there, at least not if the article's primary claim is correct: "the peak demands are concentrated primarily when renewable energy is unavailable" It doesn't seem like the availability of renewable energy will be much better at 6:30 vs. 5:30 or 6:00. So once all the demand is ramped up, there would still be a capacity shortfa…

I'm saying that even if the power were there, these smart thermostats would still strain the grid by turning on all at exactly the same time.

Power coming from renewables can exacerbate the problem, thus requiring grid storage, but the problem remains even without them.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#160

Post by popcube » Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 9:47 PM UTC

LazyMans wrote: post #86

jandrese wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nest has an energy saving feature that feels like it is trying to boil the frog. We normally keep the thermostat at 78F (~25.5C), but over the course of a couple of weeks it ticked it up to 79F, then 80, then 81, and now 82F (~28C). I had to go in and manually adjust the schedule to get it back to something reasonable.

Where do you live? I'm just curious because I can't imagine living at 78F anymore.

Is it too high or low? I am interesting about condition settings of foreign!