Web designers should start companies, not freelance • Hacker News Board

Re: Web designers should start companies, not freelance

#21

Post by mattmanser » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 12:01 AM UTC

danso wrote: post #15

kls wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an event horizon that one passes at a certain time in their career in which they come to realize that the two disciplines are indistinguishable. Both are expression of creation, a person that does not see the creative value of one has not reached the pinnacle of the other.

Nicely said. I am a developer and a designer, and I used to tell people it wasn't worth learning HTML or CSS since it's taken care of in many CMSes and plugins. But now I've come to realize that people who have little working knowledge of HTML/CSS are unable to even conceive of using the Web to its full potential.

No offence, but find me a CMS or plugin that can make me facebook or basecamp.

Or any app to be honest. If you want to make a nice application, that path is not in the slightest bit open to you.

For simple websites I agree and say the same thing, otherwise, no.

Re: Web designers should start companies, not freelance

#22

Post by ebzlo » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 12:04 AM UTC

sidmitra wrote: post #2

>a rockstar designer should take more stake in a company than a >rockstar developer. That made me laugh. I imagine the post was written by a designer. I understand how important design is, it's as important as the backend. But somehow the OP believes that it's only the design that made some apps successful. He also undermines the countless sleepless nights the "engineers" at Apple spent trying to make things work to…

This post was written by neither.

If he's going to be critical, then I will be too.

A rockstar developer would never think that and a rockstar designer would not have created stiqr.com. I'm pretty sure I counted 4 different sans-serifs.

Re: Web designers should start companies, not freelance

#23

Post by jaequery » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 12:05 AM UTC

mikeryan wrote: post #19

Here's why many "rock star" designers don't like (generally) working for a single company or brand like a startup. First you have to understand not all designers are created equal. You tend to have "Rock Stars" (or in the agency speak a Creative Director) and a spectrum down to "production" designers. "Creative Directors" tend to be good at a lot of the different design disciplines, they understand business objective…

Hi, I understand what you are saying. But I couldn't really agree on how designer becomes less engaged as startup matures. I think that's the one big misconception a developer (and designer) gets when they think of startups. Because in reality, the amount of work one can do in any given startup is unlimited. If there are no work then you create work, it's do what's best for the company. It's a life-long cycle.

Re: Web designers should start companies, not freelance

#24

Post by jaequery » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 1:01 AM UTC

ebzlo wrote: post #22

sidmitra wrote: post #2

>a rockstar designer should take more stake in a company than a >rockstar developer. That made me laugh. I imagine the post was written by a designer. I understand how important design is, it's as important as the backend. But somehow the OP believes that it's only the design that made some apps successful. He also undermines the countless sleepless nights the "engineers" at Apple spent trying to make things work to…

This post was written by neither. If he's going to be critical, then I will be too. A rockstar developer would never think that and a rockstar designer would not have created stiqr.com. I'm pretty sure I counted 4 different sans-serifs.

you missed the point. the point was that designers need to do more than just "freelance" and startups should embrace them more as co-founders. not sure why you brought up stiqr, that is just something else entirely.

Re: Web designers should start companies, not freelance

#25

Post by ebzlo » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 2:02 AM UTC

jaequery wrote: post #24

ebzlo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post was written by neither. If he's going to be critical, then I will be too. A rockstar developer would never think that and a rockstar designer would not have created stiqr.com. I'm pretty sure I counted 4 different sans-serifs.

you missed the point. the point was that designers need to do more than just "freelance" and startups should embrace them more as co-founders. not sure why you brought up stiqr, that is just something else entirely.

A startup is comprised of whoever you want. Startups are picky. Fulltime on a startup means money is tight and bodies need to be worth their weight in gold. There are enough people who can do both design and development work to seek out someone who purely does design.

Re: Web designers should start companies, not freelance

#26

Post by felipemnoa » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 2:30 AM UTC

viscanti wrote: post #17

sidmitra wrote: post #2

>a rockstar designer should take more stake in a company than a >rockstar developer. That made me laugh. I imagine the post was written by a designer. I understand how important design is, it's as important as the backend. But somehow the OP believes that it's only the design that made some apps successful. He also undermines the countless sleepless nights the "engineers" at Apple spent trying to make things work to…

Design can be split-tested by someone with average skills and end up with above average results. The same is not true of development. Throwing together a bunch of things and trying them in production leads to unmaintainable code and many hard to track down bugs. One requires time and persistence, the other requires knowledge, planning and problem solving.

I'll dare to say that the two are just as important. Think of it as one being a heart and the other being a liver. Both are just as important since without one of them you'll die. Have a poor heart or a poor liver and you'll live a sub-optimal existence.

Re: Web designers should start companies, not freelance

#27

Post by talmand » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 5:18 AM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #21

danso wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nicely said. I am a developer and a designer, and I used to tell people it wasn't worth learning HTML or CSS since it's taken care of in many CMSes and plugins. But now I've come to realize that people who have little working knowledge of HTML/CSS are unable to even conceive of using the Web to its full potential.

No offence, but find me a CMS or plugin that can make me facebook or basecamp. Or any app to be honest. If you want to make a nice application, that path is not in the slightest bit open to you. For simple websites I agree and say the same thing, otherwise, no.

Either I don't understand the meaning behind your response or you didn't understand danso's comment.

My thought was that he was stating that you need both to make a complete project, which is true.

Your last sentence suggests you think HTML/CSS is only good for simple websites? I don't quite understand what you mean.

It seems danso was saying what you might be suggesting, based on whether I understand your comment.

Either way, could you clarify what you mean? I think the "No offence" part is throwing me off.

Re: Web designers should start companies, not freelance

#28

Post by talmand » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 5:26 AM UTC

rokhayakebe wrote: post #3

If you are going into the real estate business, you partner with building engineers, not interior decorators. Designers are interior decorators. Although they create an immense amount of value, once their work is done, they are not so much needed afterwards.

Unless its a company that generates content on a timely basis. In that case it's possible the reverse is true. Once the platform is up and running the programmer is not needed as much as the designer.

It's all about context.

Every company is different and the proper number of programmers to designers will depend on the needs of the company.

If a company reaches a point that it doesn't need as many of one side, then there's a chance it's close to not needing as many on the other. But if the company wishes to grow then chances are they will still need both.

Re: Web designers should start companies, not freelance

#29

Post by danso » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 10:17 PM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #21

danso wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nicely said. I am a developer and a designer, and I used to tell people it wasn't worth learning HTML or CSS since it's taken care of in many CMSes and plugins. But now I've come to realize that people who have little working knowledge of HTML/CSS are unable to even conceive of using the Web to its full potential.

No offence, but find me a CMS or plugin that can make me facebook or basecamp. Or any app to be honest. If you want to make a nice application, that path is not in the slightest bit open to you. For simple websites I agree and say the same thing, otherwise, no.

I think you misread my comment. I said I used to think that a CMS or plugin could take care of most people's HTML needs. In fact, it might be the case that someone has to rarely write raw HTML thanks to the tools out there. But if that person never learned HTML in the first place, then they are at a severe disadvantage. As would be someone who never learned how to write because he figured he could just dictate into the computer's speech-to-text program.