Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#181

Post by dionidium » Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 5:34 PM UTC

karaterobot wrote: post #8

> “If there is the infrastructure, if there is the channel by which police can request footage without a warrant or consent of the user, under what circumstances they get it is out of our control. I worry that because it’s decided by the police and by somebody at Ring, there will be temptation to use that for increasingly less urgent situations.” Many people (I would argue anybody with common sense) predicted Ring wo…

My view on this is that we're not going back and it would be silly to try to do so. Once you have the technology to record, track, and ultimately apprehend criminals, simply not doing so in the name of ideological purity becomes increasingly obscene. What we need are courts that understand the technology, prosecutors who fear censure for overreach, and fair laws about standards of access to the data.

It's here to stay. We just need good rules around its use. The benefits are too compelling.

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#182

Post by user_7832 » Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 5:35 PM UTC

mtalantikite wrote: post #68

unfocused wrote: post #31

My next door neighbor (we share a wall) had their bicycles stolen twice, so they installed Ring (floodlight) cameras in both the backyard and the front porch. After a year, the cameras have yielded no added security, or caught any "bad guys" as far as I can tell and from what they told me. What I realized, is they use it to keep track of their kids, funny cat videos that trigger the recording, and most importantly, a…

I live in a block-long grouping of condos in Brooklyn. Every so often the management company sends out exterminators and one day as I was talking to him he pointed to these environmental monitors installed on a lamppost on our block. He says “what’s with that, the government spying on us?” and I explained it’s just some environmental data collectors, but pointed to my neighbor’s Ring and mentioned “although that thin…

I hope you let him know about Amazon's stellar privacy?

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#183

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 5:36 PM UTC

helen___keller wrote: post #2

TLDR: > Although Ring publicizes its policy of handing over camera footage only if the owner agrees — or if judge signs a search warrant — the company says it also reserves the right to supply police with footage in “emergencies,” defined broadly as “cases involving imminent danger of death or serious physical injury to any person.” (…) > it has provided police with user footage 11 times this year alone. I would actu…

I would actually be okay with this if it was more public when the standard was met. For example, there’s an armed shooter at the local elementary school in front of my house? Sure, scoop up my Ring footage.

As we saw recently, police/local government will often fight against the release of surveillance footage to the public in cases where it makes them look bad. The Austin Statesman had to fight in court for a month to get the footage from the school in Uvalde which showed police just loitering in a hallway for an hour, in the full knowledge that a gunman who had just massacred a bunch of young children was holed up in a room nearby.

I'm not using the term 'loitering' casually. There's one bit of footage showing an officer idly checking his phone, which has 'Punisher' wallpaper.

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#184

Post by dikaio » Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 5:36 PM UTC

To be fair, consent is given by these corporations constantly over any allegation so whether with or without consent you can safely assume these corporations are not on your side.

For me, I try not to get caught up in the day to day arguments of it all and just donate to organizations like the EFF.

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#185

Post by ev1 » Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

ls15 wrote: post #159

pc86 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US you don't have any expectation of privacy in public (or at least severely limited) and the courts have upheld again and again that recording public areas, even from a private area, is completely find. Some jurisdictions require notification or consent for audio recording, but not all.

I find it really unfortunate that the US is so blatantly disregarding data privacy. In a world of eroding freedom, lack of data privacy can become a severe safety risk. The return of the Taliban in Afghanistan, the reversal of Roe v. Wade and Russia's recent moves give me an idea of dynamics that can turn dark quickly.

RvW is an interesting point here - I routinely saw people camped out recording every entry point of a Planned Parenthood for example, including separate cameras pointed lower to capture licence plates. I'm assuming they later post these online or run some kind of ALPR on it for harassment.

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#186

Post by ls15 » Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

libria wrote: post #165

pc86 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US you don't have any expectation of privacy in public (or at least severely limited) and the courts have upheld again and again that recording public areas, even from a private area, is completely find. Some jurisdictions require notification or consent for audio recording, but not all.

A US law is shaped by what we think is 1) acceptable behavior 2) enforceable, practically I think video recording laws are largely influenced by 2). I can angle my Ring camera to my smoking hot neighbor so I can record her doing yardwork. Creepy AF (breaks rule 1) but at what angle is it not obviously deliberate? Turned 10 degrees toward her lawn? 30? Point being, I think US recording laws are too liberal but we need…

A physical mask that blocks the view to the hot neighbour, but not to your areas of interest would give them some reassurance.

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#187

Post by Miner49er » Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

unfocused wrote: post #31

My next door neighbor (we share a wall) had their bicycles stolen twice, so they installed Ring (floodlight) cameras in both the backyard and the front porch. After a year, the cameras have yielded no added security, or caught any "bad guys" as far as I can tell and from what they told me. What I realized, is they use it to keep track of their kids, funny cat videos that trigger the recording, and most importantly, a…

It's probably illegal too. It's illegal in most states to record conversations unless you have consent from one or all parties in the conversation.

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#188

Post by hoorible » Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 5:39 PM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #107

unfocused wrote: post #31

My next door neighbor (we share a wall) had their bicycles stolen twice, so they installed Ring (floodlight) cameras in both the backyard and the front porch. After a year, the cameras have yielded no added security, or caught any "bad guys" as far as I can tell and from what they told me. What I realized, is they use it to keep track of their kids, funny cat videos that trigger the recording, and most importantly, a…

The camera may be acting as a deterrent (if they didn't have any additional thefts) without it being obvious. I never would give a neighbor a hard time about a camera pointing at a publicly visible spot on my property- just into windows and other semi-private locations. That includes both audio and video. I ascribe to the "it's legal for journalists to go through your trash, so if you want privacy, shred your trash f…

Your trash analogy doesn’t hold up because trash becomes “public” once it’s on the street which isn’t part of your property. “Publicly visible spot on my property” is a meaningless phrase; it’s still my property, and I’m legally (here at least) allowed to raise an objection to the recording of it.

I can’t and wouldn’t object to someone recoding the sidewalk in front of my house. I can, and absolutely will, object to someone recording my yard. You might not see a distinction but there absolutely is one.

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#189

Post by silisili » Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

After years of avoiding 'smart home' bs, I finally caved on a doorbell camera and a few other goodies. After doing a lot of research, this is the reason I avoided Ring.

I ended up landing on Eufy as it stores data locally. You're free to back it up, and cloud services are completely optional(I don't use them). No complaints, feel free to ask if anyone has questions.

Re: Amazon admits giving police Ring camera footage without consent

#190

Post by mywittyname » Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

user_7832 wrote: post #182

mtalantikite wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a block-long grouping of condos in Brooklyn. Every so often the management company sends out exterminators and one day as I was talking to him he pointed to these environmental monitors installed on a lamppost on our block. He says “what’s with that, the government spying on us?” and I explained it’s just some environmental data collectors, but pointed to my neighbor’s Ring and mentioned “although that thin…

I hope you let him know about Amazon's stellar privacy?

Or that they are in cahoots with "The Government" and will gladly share any and all data through back channels because AWS has very freaking lucrative contracts with them.