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How Google got to rolling Linux releases for Desktops

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Re: How Google got to rolling Linux releases for Desktops

#111

Post by whyagain1885 »

YPPH wrote: post #48
abeisgreat wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Source: Ex-googler for 5yrs) So first this comment is clearly influenced by your own preferences for MacOS. Stackoverflow Developer Survey shows irl about 40% of development is done on Windows, 30% Mac and 30% Linux. So the platforms are at least equally appealing in real world circumstances. Secondly Goobuntu was insanely well integrated with Google’s custom source control and internal ecosystem. No one actually di…

Thanks this is a great answer. So are the others, I think I poorly expressed my initial post. I use Linux on the desktop myself. I can't justify the price, so I don't use Mac. But if my employer gave me a choice in the matter, I'd pick a macOS machine given - why not go for the fancier option? One where the UI, OS and hardware are tightly integrated. I can always download Debian for free any run it on anything. That'…

> But if my employer gave me a choice in the matter, I'd pick a macOS machine

Provided the convenience is the same. If one is used to certain way of working with linux (may be scripts, desktop environment, or workflow - Keyboard shortcuts etc. ) then just picking a machine for "fancier option" is worthless or even annoying. Also wait to migrate scripts from bash to zsh. Again not all macs allow for baremetal install of Debian.

Re: How Google got to rolling Linux releases for Desktops

#112

Post by viccuad »

Wronnay wrote: post #109

Rolling Releases are basically my main reason why I choose Arch Linux over Debian. It would be nice, if Google and Debian could team up together to bring a Debian Version with rolling releases. Imagine the stability of Debian packages together with the easiness of upgrading an Arch Linux system - would be a dream for every server.

it exists: either Debian Testing (a week or so of proven stability) or Debian Unstable (latest and greatest).

If one follows the best practices for them[1] (installing apt-listbugs and apt-listpackages), one gets information of bugs and API-breaking changes before performing the upgrade, and can decide to pin the specific package as needed, and it will automatically get released when the bug is solved.

This is thanks to how the Debian packages treat bug reports, and the debian/NEWS file. I can't believe other distributions get it so wrong for so many decades.

Plus, these 2 distributions (Testing and Unstable) get all the automated QA usual from Debian: autopkgtest integration tests, piuparts, lintian, reproducible builds, policy conformancy..

It seems it's no coincidence that gLinux from Google, rolling release, and in TFA, is based in Debian.

[1]: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianUnstable#What_are_some_best_pr...

Re: How Google got to rolling Linux releases for Desktops

#113

Post by oceanplexian »

enasterosophes wrote: post #44
qmarchi wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because almost all of our production fleet is Linux derived, it makes sense to use a platform that is nearly identical. Additionally, cost is a huge factor as well. Think about the cost of purchasing 100,000 macOS machines. Compare that to purchasing 100,000 generic x86_64 machines from several manufacturers, which are generally more friendly to customization for Google's needs. Feel free to ask questions! Disclaimer…

>Because almost all of our production fleet is Linux derived, it makes sense to use a platform that is nearly identical. Yeah, it surprises me that more people who use Linux on their infrastructure don't also dogfood it on their personal machines. We run a Linux-based cloud, and my colleagues use a variety of OSes for their daily drivers; I definitely see a difference in capability between those who dogfood and those…

It doesn't surprise me at all. It's not the software, it's the hardware.

PC hardware is absolutely terrible i.e. cheaply built, poor battery life, poor quality displays, numerous bugs and Linux compatibility issues and so on. My 16" MBP will reliably allow me to work between 15 and 20 hours without needing to recharge. The mini-LED screen is far more advanced than anything on a PC laptop, daylight visible, and can go head-to-head with professional reference displays. The CPU is substantially faster and cooler than Intel's top of the line. The audio is the best on any modern laptop. It's not like there are one or two features that Macs excel at, they are better in too many ways to count.

Re: How Google got to rolling Linux releases for Desktops

#114

Post by saagarjha »

Morgawr wrote: post #81
mjg59 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much everyone has a gLinux workstation or logs into a gLinux VM - they were, traditionally, the only devices that had access to the main source repository, so it's not so much about whether people want to or not.

Googler and ChromeOS engineer here. Opinions are my own, etc etc. This has changed/is changing. It heavily depends on your team (especially if you're not in engineering, I don't think most non-engineers would have a gLinux machine or a workstation out of the box). We've developed tools for crostini that would let people access a gLinux environment, I don't know how much I can talk about it so I won't go into details…

I mean, you can always use the web-based Cider to do your work. It's not great, but it gets the job done.

Re: How Google got to rolling Linux releases for Desktops

#115

Post by saagarjha »

p_l wrote: post #56
YPPH wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks this is a great answer. So are the others, I think I poorly expressed my initial post. I use Linux on the desktop myself. I can't justify the price, so I don't use Mac. But if my employer gave me a choice in the matter, I'd pick a macOS machine given - why not go for the fancier option? One where the UI, OS and hardware are tightly integrated. I can always download Debian for free any run it on anything. That'…

(not a googler but discussed this with some) If I recall correctly, if you choose mac and you aren't in a team directly working on mac stuff, then it means you're going to do everything using SSH to Linux workstation - iirc the choice is essentially on what kind of laptop you want and you can't do development on the laptops by policy

You can work on your Mac (I do, and my official duties pertain to Android) but you get to deal with the janky FUSE/network server mount, and if you're running builds locally they're going to be slow.

Re: How Google got to rolling Linux releases for Desktops

#116

Post by dizhn »

raffraffraff wrote: post #73
Barrin92 wrote: post #5

personally I'm a pretty big fan of opensuse tumbleweed for a rolling distribution because they ship fully tested snapshots each day rather than individual packages. If I understand the article correctly Google's Sieve is similar to the Opensuse Build Service in that regard. It seems like they went for Debian because of the proximity to Ubuntu but I wonder if they ever considered Suse, the ecosystem is pretty good.

Have to say I didn't expect much from it. I don't distro hop usually, and when I do it's Debian based distros so that I have the familiar package management tools. I also usually stick to XFCE + plank. But for the first time in over a decade I broke tradition and installed OpenSUSE Tumbleweed with KDE. The config panel you get on first login has an extremely handy feature that lets you choose a layout for KDE, and th…

For other people reading. I like everything you said about tw. I also can't believe I ended up on opensuse and KDE (with a modified bismuth tiling setup).

But to me the killer app of tw is btrfs snapshots and rollbacks via snapper. (It can be configured on other systems too but the tw installer takes care of the subvolumes nicely)

Re: How Google got to rolling Linux releases for Desktops

#117

Post by saagarjha »

abeisgreat wrote: post #36
YPPH wrote: post #29

Out of curiosity, why would a Googler elect to use a Linux based workstation as opposed to a macOS workstation? Are they testing Linux binaries? Developing kernel extensions? Linux build tools? macOS offers such a superior desktop experience I can't imagine why else you'd ask an employer offering you a macOS machine to substitute it with a Linux one.

(Source: Ex-googler for 5yrs) So first this comment is clearly influenced by your own preferences for MacOS. Stackoverflow Developer Survey shows irl about 40% of development is done on Windows, 30% Mac and 30% Linux. So the platforms are at least equally appealing in real world circumstances. Secondly Goobuntu was insanely well integrated with Google’s custom source control and internal ecosystem. No one actually di…

People who typically want to use Macs don't care much for Google's ability to modify macOS. In fact, the less Google puts on the computer the happier I think most of them would be.

Re: How Google got to rolling Linux releases for Desktops

#118

Post by Zhyl »

ryanobjc wrote: post #75
raffraffraff wrote: post #71

Glad to see that they're planning on contributing more to the upstream. But considering the size and budget of Google, and the amount of free work they're getting from the Debian community, it would be utterly irresponsible not to . Not blaming the team that's doing this good work though - I'm sure they're working hard enough as it is.

I think there's a big misunderstanding as to what exactly gLinux _IS_. Nearly every large company I've worked at worked hard to standardize the dev environment. Ensuring the right set of dev tools (and more) is available on every machine. It's not as simple as 'apt-get install build-essential' and you're done. For example many large companies use perforce, which also has a licensing requirement. Google in particular…

While this is true, I think a consumer gLinux (i.e. a Debian spin with support from Google) would be more appealing to Vendors than Ubuntu and similar just because of brand recognition.

I think Google had the opportunity to accidentally displace some of the Windows monopoly, not by doing a land grab a la ChromeOS or Android, but instead by just releasing a version of something they use themselves which would be appealing to like minded developers and companies that would follow Google's 'stamp of approval'.

Re: How Google got to rolling Linux releases for Desktops

#119

Post by oceanplexian »

vinkelhake wrote: post #33
YPPH wrote: post #29

Out of curiosity, why would a Googler elect to use a Linux based workstation as opposed to a macOS workstation? Are they testing Linux binaries? Developing kernel extensions? Linux build tools? macOS offers such a superior desktop experience I can't imagine why else you'd ask an employer offering you a macOS machine to substitute it with a Linux one.

The average Googler doesn't get to pick the OS that their workstation runs. It's going to be Linux. The typical work setup is a browser, some kind of editor and terminals - which is something that works well in Linux.

> The typical work setup is a browser, some kind of editor and terminals

I have all those things open in my work setup, but I also have 3 or 4 different chat apps that don't run on linux, a few music apps that don't run on linux, a ton of Adobe software that doesn't run on linux, a stock trading app that doesn't run on linux, Kindle, a huge number of random productivity apps and games that don't run on Linux, the list goes on.

Having to deal with half-baked Linux alternatives or mess with a Windows compatibility layer sounds like a total nightmare. I also think it doesn't support modern DRM so you're SOL if you want to put on Netflix or something in the background.

Re: How Google got to rolling Linux releases for Desktops

#120

Post by peoplefromibiza »

Wronnay wrote: post #109

Rolling Releases are basically my main reason why I choose Arch Linux over Debian. It would be nice, if Google and Debian could team up together to bring a Debian Version with rolling releases. Imagine the stability of Debian packages together with the easiness of upgrading an Arch Linux system - would be a dream for every server.

Debian testing is a rolling release with some caveat*

I use it on my desktop, but use stable for my servers.

* it is rolling until a new stable is released and at that point testing is frozen and you have to upgrade to the new testing version

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