Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

forbes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 348 posts

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#281

Post by simonh »

DenisM wrote: post #253
hobo_in_library wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Acceptance rates is a really poor choice of input for college ranking It's basically saying "other people seem to think this college is good, so we'll nudge them up a few points" In other words, it's attempting to measure public perception about the college instead of the actual results it produces. How the public _thinks_ a certain college is shouldn't factor into how good you _tell_ the public that that college per…

> It's basically saying "other people seem to think this college is good, so we'll nudge them up a few points" So does page rank or citation index - popularity begets visibility, begets popularity.

The difference is that applicants by definition don’t have personal experience of how good the school is, it’s all perception. With page rank and citations the expectation is those linking to or citing something have read it and have reason to value it.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#282

Post by selimthegrim »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #236
smugma wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In California, schools get paid on daily attendance. I believe it would be considered fraud to not take daily attendance. They suspended this during the heart of the pandemic but it came back last fall. Because daily attendance is down relative to pre pandemic, Public schools are facing a significant revenue gap (5-10% is typical)

In contrast, Michigan Public K-12 schools take attendance on specified Count Days to account for the number of students they serve to determine state funding. Fall count day is the 1st Wednesday in October and represents 90% of state funding. Spring count day is the 2nd Wednesday in February and represents 10% of state funding. As you might imagine, getting students in school on these days is a Big Deal. Teachers tak…

This sounds like the prompt to a horror story.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#283

Post by Aunche »

Fomite wrote: post #195
hackyhacky wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your suspicion is correct. I've taught at several US universities, and it's an open secret that the administrative takes steps to manipulate numbers in order to secure better rankings. Typical example: a small, prestigious liberal arts college always has smaller class sizes in the fall semester than in the spring semester. Why? Because classes with less than 30 students are ranked higher by US News, but they only tak…

Similarly, at a large land grant university, we talk a lot about improving our rankings, but acknowledge that one of the major metrics (% of students not accepted) is something that's contrary to our mission. It was an open secret when I was in Boston that Harvard actively encourages people to "give it a shot" when they know full well they're not getting in to boost that metric.

I remember when I was applying for colleges and the only reason I applied to Harvard was because they didn't require any specific essay, which was unlike any other school. If they did, I probably would have just passed on them. At the time, I thought it was nice because I was tired of writing essays, but now I realize that it's probably just a way to boost their selectivity.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#284

Post by brewdad »

draz wrote: post #279
JohnBooty wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. How would Michigan know that they were your second choice?

They expect students of a certain caliber. If the applicant exceeds their expectations, the university assumes the student is using this application as a “safety school.”

My kid, got waitlisted at UM, while a classmate with similar but slightly lower GPA and extra-currs got in. Maybe his essay wasn't as convincing or maybe they thought he'd snub them for his first choice. He didn't get into the dream school either but ended up in a great place at a school that likely fits him better anyway (and is cheaper since UM's OOS tuition is insane).

It's still frustrating as both his parents are alumni. Thanks to Covid and test waivers, 2021 seemed like a rougher year than normal to be applying to the higher end of schools.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#285

Post by brewdad »

kragen wrote: post #267
bdowling wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that quote is that if you don't learn to get good grades (e.g., because you are actually learning and not studying for the test), then the resulting bad grades can be extremely damaging to your future.

How is that a problem with the quote? It sounds like a problem with the system, a problem the essay correctly identified.

Ok. Now fix the system in a timeframe that is compatible with your expected working life.

That's the problem with the quote. Grades may not be the most important thing but they can, and often are, the most important thing for any given individual. For every Bill Gates that dropped out, there are a million John Doe's drowning in student loan debt with no degree and limited future prospects to show for it.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#286

Post by fsckboy »

misleading headline (on the original article)

from TFA: "on Thursday of last week, just before the July 1 deadline for submitting new data to U.S. News... Provost Mary Boyce, said [Columbia] would not submit data this year, adding that the university had “embarked on a review of our data collection and submissions process”

and that is why they will not be in the rankings. It seems Forbes filled out this submission just like Columbia did theirs, to skew overall appearance.

the "scandal" could very well still be the scandal everybody thinks it is, but it seems to be an overstatement to draw the bold lines that Forbes is juicing their article with. And as others have said, unless we know the extent of fudging at other schools it's difficult to judge the severity of this case.

full disclosure, I have no Columbia or ivy affiliation, but I perceive it to be easily within the top 10

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#287

Post by cma »

naniwaduni wrote: post #274
Spooky23 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perception is the result. Average SAT score relative to others tells you roughly average IQ difference for the student body. The rest is bunk. Undergraduates aren’t connecting with famous professors. A faculty team with deep expertise in a particular area is relevant but not in the rankings.

My impression has long been that the endowment per capita metric provides about as good a ranking as any of the third-party rankings within a category. Where it disagrees with US News, it usually matches my intuitions; and where it disagrees with my intuitions, I usually learn that the college in question has a better reputation than my impression. It doesn't do a great job comparing across categories, but then, neit…

Some top colleges don't have alumni/legacy preference so that endowment measure maybe gets skewed away from them. MIT and I think Caltech.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#288

Post by frognumber »

whimsicalism wrote: post #132
corrral wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stanford is surely the most prestigious general-purpose university west of, well, Harvard. Is that no longer Yale? From the perspective of someone who had a rather poor exposure to universities during my high school years—so, precisely what someone gets from pop-culture and osmosis without anyone in particular acting as a guide—my impression was that Harvard and Yale were unambiguously the Big Two, and everything e…

I think Stanford is viewed as having eclipsed Yale and is competitive with Harvard. Princeton probably also eclipses Yale.

Insider who worked with a lot of schools: Yale is a much, much better school than Stanford. Stanford beats Yale on hype.

A lot of the elites are hype-over-substance, and it's often hard for a naive audience to screen out which ones.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#289

Post by Fomite »

JohnBooty wrote: post #276
KMag wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Michigan also seemed to waitlist me and several of the people I knew at MIT. If they know they're the backup school, and they think you're going to get into your first choice, it hurts their acceptance rate to accept you outright. Though, maybe it's just confirmation bias and ego. Maybe there was something in my application that gave Michigan pause but seemed fine to MIT. At that time, Michigan did ask which other sc…

I'm confused. How would Michigan know that they were your second choice?

I used to live with an admissions officer - they've got data (and instinct) for "You're probably not going to go here". The same is true for graduate admissions in my experience.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#290

Post by rendall »

dwater wrote: post #29

For context, U.S. News and World Report used to be a trusted periodical that reported national and international news. In the 80's they started ranking colleges and selling it as a separate publication, which turned out to be pretty profitable, so they repeated the trick by ranking hospitals (1990), cars (2007), and then states (2017). The news business went online only in 2011, then shuttered in 2015. Since then the…

I had first heard of them because Zork had a US News and Dungeon Report magazine, and it was such a specific name I knew it must refer to something in the real world. I never did get a chance to read the actual magazine, though.
Post reply on HN