Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

forbes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 348 posts

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#271

Post by Spooky23 »

hobo_in_library wrote: post #229
Fomite wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, at a large land grant university, we talk a lot about improving our rankings, but acknowledge that one of the major metrics (% of students not accepted) is something that's contrary to our mission. It was an open secret when I was in Boston that Harvard actively encourages people to "give it a shot" when they know full well they're not getting in to boost that metric.

Acceptance rates is a really poor choice of input for college ranking It's basically saying "other people seem to think this college is good, so we'll nudge them up a few points" In other words, it's attempting to measure public perception about the college instead of the actual results it produces. How the public _thinks_ a certain college is shouldn't factor into how good you _tell_ the public that that college per…

Perception is the result. Average SAT score relative to others tells you roughly average IQ difference for the student body.

The rest is bunk. Undergraduates aren’t connecting with famous professors. A faculty team with deep expertise in a particular area is relevant but not in the rankings.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#272

Post by throwawaylinux »

everdrive wrote: post #182
kmlevitt wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small class sizes are better precisely because the class can then become more than a lecture. I am a professor, and if you give me a hall full of students I’ll give a lecture, because that’s all that can really happen under those circumstances. If it’s a small group, I can actually learn everybody’s names, get to know them, personalize the material more and spend big chunks of the class just answering your questions…

I think it's wrong to think that lectures are always inferior. There have been many cases where a professor trying for a more interactive class has made the experience worse for me. This most often comes in the form of prolonged rhetorical questions. A teacher, fearing he is losing the class' interest might pause to ask "And, what is the benefit of the scientific method?" The point here is clearly to gauge whether th…

> I think it's wrong to think that lectures are always inferior. There have been many cases where a professor trying for a more interactive class has made the experience worse for me.

A foundation of the bloated academic and teaching industry requires that that professors can not teach more than a small number of students at once, or at least not teach them well. And that people who were taught in schools with smaller classes that were more expensive must be better. All claims about teaching and learning should be considered with that in mind, especially when it comes from the industry itself.

That being said, interactivity with professors probably works better in most other settings than a lecture format.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#273

Post by etempleton »

tobinfricke wrote: post #230
smugma wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Berkeley has been doing this for at least 35 years.

Yup, I got into Berkeley EECS this way back in the late 20th century. I'd guess it's legitimate load-balancing rather than an attempt to game the ratings. I assumed this meant that my application was borderline and I was grateful to be able to sneak in. The Extension program is a nice transition to college too.

Load balancing is the most likely reason. At any given college a lot of first year students decide college isn't for them or they get home sick and drop out within the first semester. After that initial period student population of the class is much more stable.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#274

Post by naniwaduni »

Spooky23 wrote: post #271
hobo_in_library wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Acceptance rates is a really poor choice of input for college ranking It's basically saying "other people seem to think this college is good, so we'll nudge them up a few points" In other words, it's attempting to measure public perception about the college instead of the actual results it produces. How the public _thinks_ a certain college is shouldn't factor into how good you _tell_ the public that that college per…

Perception is the result. Average SAT score relative to others tells you roughly average IQ difference for the student body. The rest is bunk. Undergraduates aren’t connecting with famous professors. A faculty team with deep expertise in a particular area is relevant but not in the rankings.

My impression has long been that the endowment per capita metric provides about as good a ranking as any of the third-party rankings within a category. Where it disagrees with US News, it usually matches my intuitions; and where it disagrees with my intuitions, I usually learn that the college in question has a better reputation than my impression.

It doesn't do a great job comparing across categories, but then, neither does US News...

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#275

Post by HWR_14 »

troupe wrote: post #235
hobo_in_library wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Acceptance rates is a really poor choice of input for college ranking It's basically saying "other people seem to think this college is good, so we'll nudge them up a few points" In other words, it's attempting to measure public perception about the college instead of the actual results it produces. How the public _thinks_ a certain college is shouldn't factor into how good you _tell_ the public that that college per…

Imagine college A that 100 apply for and all 100 get in vs. college B where 10,000 people applied and only 100 got in. If both colleges are choosing students based off of some measurable criteria, let's say the SAT score. Would you expect to have higher average scores at college A or college B? Obviously college B would have students with better SAT scores simply because they are so much more selective. Assuming that…

> If both colleges are choosing students based off of some measurable criteria, let's say the SAT score. Would you expect to have higher average scores at college A or college B?

Except "average SAT score of incoming class" is another field of the rankings. All the measurable criteria are handled as independent variables - there's no need for a poor proxy.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#276

Post by JohnBooty »

KMag wrote: post #258
joe5150 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Recruit to deny" [1] has been getting more attention but still not enough. 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/29/us/harvard-admissions-rec...

Michigan also seemed to waitlist me and several of the people I knew at MIT. If they know they're the backup school, and they think you're going to get into your first choice, it hurts their acceptance rate to accept you outright. Though, maybe it's just confirmation bias and ego. Maybe there was something in my application that gave Michigan pause but seemed fine to MIT. At that time, Michigan did ask which other sc…

I'm confused. How would Michigan know that they were your second choice?

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#277

Post by HWR_14 »

sam-2727 wrote: post #94

The beginning of the conclusion of the original study [1] is worth repeating: No one should try to reform or rehabilitate the ranking. It is irredeemable. In Colin Diver’s memorable formulation, “Trying to rank institutions of higher education is a little like trying to rank religions or philosophies. The entire enterprise is flawed, not only in detail but also in conception.” Students are poorly served by rankings.…

This is completely true of undergraduate studies. There is a very real reason to think that department (not university) rankings in graduate studies matter.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#278

Post by selfhifive »

jancsika wrote: post #211
rglullis wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My uncle was a math teacher in Brazil - mostly test-prep course schools for university exams, later he opened some of his own private schools. He used to say two things: that he has estimated to have taught at least 100 thousand people in his life (seems just crazy boasting, but feasible when you are working in 5-8 different schools per semester and each class has 100-250 people) and that a teacher is always teaching…

This doesn't pass the smell test. If you teach a class of 250 students, you aren't even aware of the bottom percentile until the first exam is graded. That's many weeks after you've already taught many lectures. So how would your uncle even figure out how to tailor those initial lectures to that bottom percentile? Where this matters is in something like a lab or music practicum where the communication between instruc…

You gauge the level of the class by asking questions, get an idea of where they are, and vary the pace accordingly. You've also got to factor in the experience of the teacher in gauging the level of the class.

You don't need to know everyone's level, just a rough idea about what the worst student of the class might need.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#279

Post by draz »

JohnBooty wrote: post #276
KMag wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Michigan also seemed to waitlist me and several of the people I knew at MIT. If they know they're the backup school, and they think you're going to get into your first choice, it hurts their acceptance rate to accept you outright. Though, maybe it's just confirmation bias and ego. Maybe there was something in my application that gave Michigan pause but seemed fine to MIT. At that time, Michigan did ask which other sc…

I'm confused. How would Michigan know that they were your second choice?

They expect students of a certain caliber. If the applicant exceeds their expectations, the university assumes the student is using this application as a “safety school.”

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#280

Post by dhosek »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #154
dhosek wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently there’s a common application thing now where you can apply to large numbers of schools for undergrad without spending large amounts of money.

The common application just means you don't have to fill out unique admission forms for every school. You still pay an application fee to every school.

From the common application site: While some colleges may charge an application fee, others have no fee to apply. And, many will offer fee waivers under certain circumstances, including financial need, veteran status, and more.

Based on a conversation with my nephew who applied to a double-digit number of colleges this past year, the application fees are apparently more the exception than the rule these days.

Post reply on HN