U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#171

Post by perpetualpatzer » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 10:50 PM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #30

ketzo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if someone gets into multiple, they probably won't pick based on position in some list Not trying to be contrarian, but I had two friends literally pick between Ivies based on this very list (in 2015). It’s generally accepted as “The List” by a lot of people. If you’re a parent with no other frame of reference, The List has a serious impact.

What happens if your pick drops in ranking by the time you graduate?

Not much. Most peers and hiring managers stopped paying attention to these ratings when they got into college, so the market's perception of your degree is some blended average of the programs' ratings over the past ~40 years. By the time rankings after you matriculated represent a meaningful portion of the average, your alma mater is no longer a particularly relevant part of your resume.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#172

Post by thaumasiotes » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 10:51 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #84

zerocrates wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they mean the size of individual classes, so they're paying for more sections/instructors/instruction time in the ranking-relevant periods. Though shrinking the admit size is another well worn tactic, as it's the easiest way to increase how "selective" you are which is another major ranking element, plus it helps you more cheaply achieve smaller average class sizes, though of course you're forgoing some reven…

Encouraging people to apply is also a common tactic. You can't reject them if they don't apply!

> You can't reject them if they don't apply!

You can if you admit on objective metrics. If you only take people who are 215 pounds or above, you can fairly claim to reject everyone lighter than that, regardless of whether they apply.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#173

Post by balls187 » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 10:52 PM UTC

kmlevitt wrote: post #156

lumost wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is small class size a good thing? Anecdotally, you get better class material and TA staff in larger lectures. Why aren't Universities able to innovate here?

Small class sizes are better precisely because the class can then become more than a lecture. I am a professor, and if you give me a hall full of students I’ll give a lecture, because that’s all that can really happen under those circumstances. If it’s a small group, I can actually learn everybody’s names, get to know them, personalize the material more and spend big chunks of the class just answering your questions…

> If it’s a small group, I can actually learn everybody’s names, get to know them, personalize the material more and spend big chunks of the class just answering your questions and starting discussions based on them.

I went to a relatively small private engineering school. It made a world of difference in my education knowing the professors, and having them know me, especially given that with small classes the professors offered office hours where I could come and discuss the material that was covered during class, as well as problems I encountered on midterms.

I still remember nearly all of my professors, fondly, precisely because of the dynamic small class sizes allowed for.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#174

Post by jimhefferon » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 10:54 PM UTC

poulsbohemian wrote: post #98

lumost wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My undergrad was at Umass Amherst, and I currently attend GA Tech's OMSCS program. Professors love sharing info on why they chose to talk about one topic vs. another, and by and large were happy to connect with any student motivated enough to attend an office hours or talk to them after class. I knew same personal information about the professors I worked with in the lab, but I don't generally see how that would impr…

What I've heard anecdotal bears out what you are saying, IE: once you get through various mega weed-out classes, in many universities you still get the luxury of smaller class sizes and more direct access to professors as you reach those upper level classes. Where I was asking for clarification was on the idea that somehow people were getting better materials and a better overall experience in thee 500+ people lectur…

One factor I don't see anyone mentioning here is the student. Some people can do great in a large lecture and that's great. But I teach in a SLAC and often students tell me they don't think they could do well without the smaller courses.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#175

Post by eduction » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 10:54 PM UTC

hackyhacky wrote: post #7

burlesona wrote: post #3

Per the article this came in response to questions raised by a Columbia faculty member critiquing the university's data. I thought that report[1] was actually more interesting than the original article. As per the quote at the top of the report: > Rankings create powerful incentives to manipulate data and distort institutional behavior for the sole or primary purpose of inflating one’s score... It would be shocking t…

Your suspicion is correct. I've taught at several US universities, and it's an open secret that the administrative takes steps to manipulate numbers in order to secure better rankings. Typical example: a small, prestigious liberal arts college always has smaller class sizes in the fall semester than in the spring semester. Why? Because classes with less than 30 students are ranked higher by US News, but they only tak…

I attended a well known and regarded public university. I was admitted for spring, and for the preceding fall entered a program where I could live in a regular university dorm and take classes for full credit taught at the same university’s extension, but special extension classes just for this program (so all spring admit students). Then you stay in the dorm in spring as you become a “regular” student.

I always suspected it was a way to fudge numbers, but at the same time I knew I was genuinely on the bubble of being admitted so I took the opportunity gladly.

(My memory is that the other spring admits were, like me, from racial groups considered “over represented” so they may have been trying to affect diversity numbers too.)

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#176

Post by seanmcdirmid » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 10:57 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #166

verst wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. I went to a liberal arts college and had small class sizes (most around 9-15 in size, with the largest being 30) - I could see my professors 1:1 pretty much anytime I wanted, but there was also a preceptor (TA) for each class who didn't teach, but was available to answer questions related to assignments, projects etc. I went to the house of many of my professors for food or drinks too. Generally also wa…

Many professors at small liberal arts colleges still conduct research. And because of small class sizes, there is a good chance for a motivated student to get to know their professor and participate in that research. There are also research consortiums of small colleges. I did original geological research 2 out of my 3 summers in a small college via the Keck Consortium: https://keckgeology.org/

I did research for a professor as an undergraduate at a big university. Once you are out of lower division courses and into your upper division major classes, your classes are much smaller and the professors start to know you as you see them around a lot.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#177

Post by bee_rider » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 10:57 PM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #58

willhinsa wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, Coca-Cola spends 4 billion of dollars every year on advertising.

In 2010, Pepsi switched at least their superb owl advertising budget to feel good community projects and lost sales at 6% vs a 4.3% overall decline for soda. Advertising drives sales, even if you can't tie a sale directly to an ad.

I dunno, Pepsi always seemed more faddish anyway, I'm not surprised their marketshare would be less durable.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#178

Post by rr888 » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 10:59 PM UTC

lpolovets wrote: post #65

The influence of US News on colleges is wild. One absurd tidbit that I've heard: the rankings weigh freshman stats much more than transfer student stats, so a lot of competitive schools that won't let you in as a freshman if you would hurt their SAT/GPA/etc averages will happily let you in as a transfer because they'll make more revenue and your stats no longer hurt their rankings. * The ranking formula is also chang…

Yeah this was one of the whistleblower topics. Columbia has highest number of transfers http://www.math.columbia.edu/~thaddeus/ranking/investigation...

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#179

Post by onionisafruit » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 11:00 PM UTC

nus07 wrote: post #15

burlesona wrote: post #3

Per the article this came in response to questions raised by a Columbia faculty member critiquing the university's data. I thought that report[1] was actually more interesting than the original article. As per the quote at the top of the report: > Rankings create powerful incentives to manipulate data and distort institutional behavior for the sole or primary purpose of inflating one’s score... It would be shocking t…

I have a friend who works at Duke University’s marketing analytics and performance metrics team. It’s filled with MBAs who’s job is to massage the numbers and metrics that are asked by US News every year and provide them to US News.

It's probably staffed with MBAs to boost the job placement numbers for their MBA program.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#180

Post by ausbah » Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 11:02 PM UTC

kens wrote: post #26

There's a very interesting article "How to Game the College Rankings" about how Northeastern University's president focused on improving the university's ranking. In 1996, it was a "third-tier, blue-collar, commuter-based university" rated #162. The new university president had a singleminded goal: to improve the ranking. He got the university into the top 100 in 2006 and into the top 50 by 2013. https://www.bostonma…

speaking as a as-of-this-year Northeastern CS graduate

the university definitely has done things to improve its rankings over the past ~30 years, some legitimately good (hiring higher quality staff, putting more emphasis on research, building more student accommodations like on campus housing, expanding the co-op program) and also less than savory moves (the NUIn program which admits more freshman students without having to record their statistics in the incoming class record, international campuses to "build the brand"). I think, at least the CS and co-op programs are great, and - minus the cost - is a overall great school. they definitely had the aim of improving the ranking, but in doing that they did improve the quality and size of the school along many important fronts. my read is then that USNews still has use in measuring universities, up to a certain point (say top 50 or top 100)