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University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

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Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#91

Post by Ma8ee »

Jensson wrote: post #83
Ma8ee wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure about that? I’m sure that you probably could find small but significant (in the statistical sense) differences of intelligence between races and genders if you tried hard enough. It would be strange otherwise. Would that knowledge make the world a better or worse place in the current political climate? What would your thoughts be about the motivation behind that research? Do you really think it would be…

Why doesn't good people fund good science where they get all these numbers for difference in intelligence etc? Currently the only sources for those numbers comes from biased people, so getting the real numbers out there should be a win and reduce racism, no? Because without those numbers people will view the difference as much bigger than they are, that is how bias works. You fight bias with real numbers and statisti…

> You fight bias with real numbers and statistics,

I really wish that was the case. Say that the research say that group A is slightly more intelligent than group B, but that the variation between each group is much larger than the small difference between the averages. The only thing that will be repeated ad nausea, and used to justify all sorts of inequality, is group A is more intelligent than group B.

> for example whenever biased people talk about criminal immigrants we point to statistics showing that immigrants aren't very criminal

In my country immigrants are about twice as likely as the native population to have a criminal record. A lot of that can be explained by bias among the police and courts, and by social class. What people remember is TWICE as criminal, which rapidly becomes “most of them are criminals”, not that 97% don’t have any criminal record (compared to 98.5).

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#92

Post by feet »

willis936 wrote: post #80
feet wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All anthropological work about contemporary society seeks to inform public opinion which dictates policy. I'm specifically asking about the goal of informing public opinion and dictating policy which is a wildly different goal than just 'sharing their findings'. Here is your claim: >Theoretical physics does not aim to influence social policy. 'aim to influence social policy' is an extremely specific goal that you're…

I said "which", not "and". Public opinion is inherently tied to publishing findings. Their goal is to publish their findings, which informs public opinion, which dictates policy. You're claiming that I claimed that the authors prescribed policy, which I clearly did not.

No, I'm refuting your claim about anthropology in general having an 'aim to influence public policy'.

Public policy is not the focus of anthropology, where did you get that idea?

Anthropology is not political science

You used very specific words that mean very specific things. 'Aim to influence' means that the goal is literally to influence public policy. That's not what the study of anthropology is about.

>Anthropology is the scientific study of humanity, concerned with human behavior, human biology, cultures, societies, and linguistics, in both the present and past, including past human species.[1][2][3] Social anthropology studies patterns of behaviour, while cultural anthropology[1][2][3] studies cultural meaning, including norms and values.

Anthropologists generally try not to interfere with the society they're studying, they don't want to impact the system because they are just there to record. Not to change. Of course there will be some activists in many fields but that is not the goal in anthropology.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropology

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#93

Post by zozbot234 »

Jensson wrote: post #83
Ma8ee wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure about that? I’m sure that you probably could find small but significant (in the statistical sense) differences of intelligence between races and genders if you tried hard enough. It would be strange otherwise. Would that knowledge make the world a better or worse place in the current political climate? What would your thoughts be about the motivation behind that research? Do you really think it would be…

Why doesn't good people fund good science where they get all these numbers for difference in intelligence etc? Currently the only sources for those numbers comes from biased people, so getting the real numbers out there should be a win and reduce racism, no? Because without those numbers people will view the difference as much bigger than they are, that is how bias works. You fight bias with real numbers and statisti…

Part of the problem is that the question itself is not very sensible in the first place. But if you want to ask more complex questions, you first need to conclusively set aside simpler ones, even ones that are so ludicrous as to only be useful as a convenient straw man. So this is very much a worthwhile activity.

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#94

Post by zozbot234 »

Ma8ee wrote: post #91
Jensson wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't good people fund good science where they get all these numbers for difference in intelligence etc? Currently the only sources for those numbers comes from biased people, so getting the real numbers out there should be a win and reduce racism, no? Because without those numbers people will view the difference as much bigger than they are, that is how bias works. You fight bias with real numbers and statisti…

> You fight bias with real numbers and statistics, I really wish that was the case. Say that the research say that group A is slightly more intelligent than group B, but that the variation between each group is much larger than the small difference between the averages. The only thing that will be repeated ad nausea, and used to justify all sorts of inequality, is group A is more intelligent than group B. > for examp…

People can and will make up all sorts of claims, they don't need formal research as an excuse. So having reliable information about these things is still preferable to not having it. Then a ludicrous claim like "most people in X group are criminals" can at least be debunked easily.

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#95

Post by davidktr »

oifjsidjf wrote: post #32

Ironicaly if the Greater Male Variability Hypothesis is true this also means that many more men are more dumber than women since women are more centered towards the gauss average. Ironicaly this is never mentioned, they just see this is a "many more men can have a higher iq distrubution wise due to the male gauss tail stretching out further than womens, so this is sexist to say that men are smarter". This shows you h…

> Ironicaly this is never mentioned

What are you talking about? That is mentioned everywhere. Have a look at the Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis): "Note that the curve with the greater variability (green) yields higher values in both the lowest and highest ends of the range."

The evidence points strongly towards confirmation for the hypothesis regarding intelligence. Only the reason is unclear.

> This shows you how biased all of these critics are, zero scientific discussion, pure emotional and egoistic outbursts.

Pure projection on your part. You are not even familiar with the current discussion.

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#96

Post by rowanG077 »

willis936 wrote: post #66
zozbot234 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's news to me. How do all those nifty particle accelerators get funded, then?

The budget is only loosely related to social policy. Social policy is related to who gets what rights and priveleges.

And a group of physicist getting very expensive toys while the chemist/biologist/psychologist do not is exactly that. The physicist have rights and privileges the others don't have.

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#98

Post by rhinoceraptor »

jollybean wrote: post #36
rhinoceraptor wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a form of systematic oppression. Against who? Parody artists? Weird Al has a parody along the same lines on his 2014 album and I'm not aware of any outrage. If your biggest concern in life is being "cancelled" (a dramatic term for being criticized on the internet), I think that says more about you and your intolerance for free speech, than anyone else.

Being 'cancelled' in academia and entertainment is a very real thing that happens to artists, but more notably, as I mentioned, suppresses tons of content across the board that won't even get pitched otherwise. While some people do overstate it, it's definitely real. Those who diminish it are the fascists of our generation. Sean Penn (far left activist) and Conan O'Brien (staunch centre left advocate, public supporte…

The JK Rowling thing I personally have the most knowledge of. There is a "continuous public furor" (read: trans people and allies criticizing her) because she is one of the many, many people obsessed with posting their opposition to trans people online.

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#99

Post by jollybean »

eesmith wrote: post #60
jollybean wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being 'cancelled' in academia and entertainment is a very real thing that happens to artists, but more notably, as I mentioned, suppresses tons of content across the board that won't even get pitched otherwise. While some people do overstate it, it's definitely real. Those who diminish it are the fascists of our generation. Sean Penn (far left activist) and Conan O'Brien (staunch centre left advocate, public supporte…

> A long list of thinkers, including the likes of Chomsky himself, had to come out and publicly admonish the 'cancellers' (mostly on the far left) for the systematic problem. Please re-examine what right-wing cancellation means. School administrators leaving because of right-wing pressure that "diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives" = "CRT" = "toxic propaganda" = ideological poison" is cancelling by the right,…

You're mixing streams.

Yes, I'm very aware of the debates surrounding CRT and public furor.

Nobody is is getting 'cancelled' due to 'CRT' - rather, it's a subject that is very rightly controversial.

'CRT' is an interesting concept, which is ultimately a bit post modern, and can be used to propagate misinformation as much as it can be a tool of enlightenment.

For example 'CRT' has is the ideology used to get rid of AP classes in high school. Does that seem reasonable? I think many would disagree with the policy. It's inherently controversial.

But that aside - nobody is 'cancelled' over it. Careers are not ruined. Authors, creative people, academics - they are all free to publish books and papers on the subject. Nobody is pulling books from the shelf because it's about 'CRT'.

"Operatively speaking, "cancel culture" seem to mean "rich and powerful who don't like to be criticized"."

No - this is completely false. The vast focus of 'cancel culture' has been focused on those who transgress values of ostensible social justice. The best examples would be Dave Chapelle on Netflix, or, Kevin Hart's cancellation of Oscar Hosting, or Comedians pulling jokes on campus.

The 'outrage' is from the young, the left.

Colin Kaepernick can publish whatever book he wants, attend whatever parade he wants, make any kind of speech he wants, and none of it would be controversial.

Disney is not pulling content because of what Floridians think about this or that, however, they absolutely are pulling and shaping content based on what social justice ideologues believe.

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#100

Post by jollybean »

rhinoceraptor wrote: post #98
jollybean wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being 'cancelled' in academia and entertainment is a very real thing that happens to artists, but more notably, as I mentioned, suppresses tons of content across the board that won't even get pitched otherwise. While some people do overstate it, it's definitely real. Those who diminish it are the fascists of our generation. Sean Penn (far left activist) and Conan O'Brien (staunch centre left advocate, public supporte…

The JK Rowling thing I personally have the most knowledge of. There is a "continuous public furor" (read: trans people and allies criticizing her) because she is one of the many, many people obsessed with posting their opposition to trans people online.

And? JK makes statements that are supportive of trans people in her view, but that they are also different than women. It's her right.

The issue is she's being bullied and lambasted for not having the 'correct view' in the eyes of the social justice mob.

This ultimately rolls up to economics and producers get afraid.

Every work related to her new gets a bitchy frothy scathing indictment in 'The Daily Beast' and other rags because irrespective of the quality of the content, they 'hate' the author for her ideological positions, and so, they make a fuss.

She's rich and certainly her books are still popular, so she has some degree of defence, but the outrage against her is populist fascism.

'Social Justice Mobs' - particularly among the young (I'm making my assumptions from Reddit readership) are a problem. The kids are self righteous fascist.

This is an entirely separate problem from 'right wing mobs' trying to overthrow election results, denying that such a thing as 'trans' exists etc.. The means of expression of power are quite different.

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