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University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

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Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#51

Post by zozbot234 »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #41
zozbot234 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like the 'only a small amount of desire to live near similar people leads to self-segregation' thing. > You know what else leads to segregation? Actual laws that enforce it at the point of a gun with legal and extra-legal terrorism. "Tell me you don't understand social science, without telling me you don't understand social science." The point of these models is not usually to argue for the status quo. Often they'r…

It's not a small incentive though. It's a toy model where the only thing that the agent cares about is how many of his neighbours are the same color as him. Every single person in this model society will immediately move house if 1/3 of their immediate neighbours are the wrong color and not move to any such neighbourhood for any reason, since there are no other motivations in the model. Which apparently was considere…

Is it really that surprising that people might have wanted to model "preferences for segregation" in the middle of the civil rights era? That's when controversial policies such as school busing were started, and the implied argument for those was not very different from the one that's surfaced by this model - segregation was understood as self-reinforcing, and only very strong policy choices could drive a "mixing" outcome.

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#52

Post by krapp »

oxfordmale wrote: post #49

Surely the right wing media will now jump on the fact this paper was "cancelled" as it was communicating an inconvenient truth for the wokerati? You can't win. The best thing to do is to let such things go as this article would have gone unnoticed.

Or, we could not make decisions about what to publish and what not based on how the lunatic fringe might react to it.

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#53

Post by concinds »

Context:

https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2018/09/11/on-the-recently-re...

https://liorpachter.wordpress.com/2018/09/17/mathematics-mat...

https://quillette.com/2018/09/07/academic-activists-send-a-p... (by one of the paper's authors)

http://www.personal.psu.edu/cpc16/politico-email-29nov2018.p... (mail criticizing Quillette article)

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#54

Post by zozbot234 »

willis936 wrote: post #48
civilized wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High-energy physicists make up theories for the mechanisms behind phenomena that may or may not even exist all the time. One can question the utility of this but no one strings up such authors for heresy.

Theoretical physics does not aim to influence social policy.

That's news to me. How do all those nifty particle accelerators get funded, then?

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#55

Post by sbuttgereit »

jollybean wrote: post #9

Imagine the 'indirect effect' that these kinds of things have on discussions throughout the industry. Reddit just had a discussion about the video 'Fat' (i.e. 'Bad') by Weird Al Mocking Michael Jackson. It 'couldn't be made today' first because it wouldn't even be pitched in the first place - too much risk. They'll try another idea. Maybe it's 'not nice' in 2022 to use the term 'fat' - or, maybe it's not so bad, and…

I tend to be sympathetic to your arguments, and I realize what I'm raising is not directly related to your point. But as others pointed out, Yankovic was far from mocking Michael Jackson... and in fact it's well known that Jackson was in on the joke:

“Michael Jackson wasn’t just cool about my parody of ‘Beat It,’” Yankovic told People in 2016. “But he also loved my version of ‘Bad,’ which was ‘Fat.’ He even let me use the actual ‘Bad’ subway set for the ‘Fat’ video. He was very supportive, which was huge with opening the doors with other artists. Because if Michael Jackson signed on, you couldn’t really say no.”

(https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/michael-jackson-acc...)

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#56

Post by hulitu »

prvc wrote: post #45

>A University investigation cleared two University of Chicago mathematics professors of wrongdoing after they independently criticized a controversial mathematics paper [...] I'd like to know the sense of "independently" that the author had in mind here, considering the two are married to one another. Also worth wondering whether the paper was intrinsically "controversial", or merely made to be so by virtue of the co…

> I'd like to know the sense of "independently" that the author had in mind here, considering the two are married to one another.

Yes, dear.

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#57

Post by [deleted] »

fartsucker69 wrote: post #37
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #35

There's a whole genre of simple mathematical models that excuse centuries of well documented oppression. Like the 'only a small amount of desire to live near similar people leads to self-segregation' thing. You know what else leads to segregation? Actual laws that enforce it at the point of a gun with legal and extra-legal terrorism. If only there was some way to tell which of these occurred in real history.

I don't know what point you're making. Should those models not be allowed to exist? Usually the way this goes is that a scientist proposes a model to describe something, and it's fine. When it goes wrong is usually when the public picks up that science and uses it to do something horrible. The thing about self-segregation behaviour you mention is a basic fact of life, you can see it everywhere, all the time, chances…

[deleted]

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#58

Post by feet »

prvc wrote: post #45

>A University investigation cleared two University of Chicago mathematics professors of wrongdoing after they independently criticized a controversial mathematics paper [...] I'd like to know the sense of "independently" that the author had in mind here, considering the two are married to one another. Also worth wondering whether the paper was intrinsically "controversial", or merely made to be so by virtue of the co…

My assumption is that in this context 'independently' means not in their official duties or roles as people affiliated with the university. So the university investigated them for something they did on their own time

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#59

Post by dhruvdh »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #40
fartsucker69 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what point you're making. Should those models not be allowed to exist? Usually the way this goes is that a scientist proposes a model to describe something, and it's fine. When it goes wrong is usually when the public picks up that science and uses it to do something horrible. The thing about self-segregation behaviour you mention is a basic fact of life, you can see it everywhere, all the time, chances…

I've created a simple mathmatical model that suggests they wouldn't get created in the first place, so we no longer need to discuss whether banning them was a good idea or not, it just happened naturally, and there's nothing anyone could have done to change that.

It would help if you read the parent comment and made a response to its contents. In so far, you've just validated his point - as a member of "the public" not understanding science and using partial truths to reinforce previously held beliefs.

The point I think the parent is trying to make is that the problem is not scientists creating models, the problem is people not understanding the models and using it as an excuse to be vicious; or politicians using an untrue view of models to further their own agendas.

Re: University Profs' Criticism Led to Retraction of Math Paper on Gender (2018)

#60

Post by eesmith »

jollybean wrote: post #36
rhinoceraptor wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a form of systematic oppression. Against who? Parody artists? Weird Al has a parody along the same lines on his 2014 album and I'm not aware of any outrage. If your biggest concern in life is being "cancelled" (a dramatic term for being criticized on the internet), I think that says more about you and your intolerance for free speech, than anyone else.

Being 'cancelled' in academia and entertainment is a very real thing that happens to artists, but more notably, as I mentioned, suppresses tons of content across the board that won't even get pitched otherwise. While some people do overstate it, it's definitely real. Those who diminish it are the fascists of our generation. Sean Penn (far left activist) and Conan O'Brien (staunch centre left advocate, public supporte…

> A long list of thinkers, including the likes of Chomsky himself, had to come out and publicly admonish the 'cancellers' (mostly on the far left) for the systematic problem.

Please re-examine what right-wing cancellation means.

School administrators leaving because of right-wing pressure that "diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives" = "CRT" = "toxic propaganda" = ideological poison" is cancelling by the right, yes? https://www.propublica.org/article/georgia-dei-crt-schools-p...

] Parents Defending Education has created “indoctrination maps” tracking everything from a district celebrating “Black Lives Matter week” to one that allows students to watch CNN Student News, while the Atlanta-based Education Veritas and Kahaian’s Protect Student Health Georgia provide portals for anonymously reporting educators supposedly sympathetic to CRT, DEI and other so-called controversial learning concepts. ...

] And with that effort came a renewed vilification of CRT, a four-decade-old theory that, contrary to its opponents’ accusations, is rarely if ever taught in K-12 public school systems (it typically is taught in graduate-level college and law school courses). ...

] Using local media coverage and lawsuits, ProPublica has identified at least 14 public school employees across the country, six of them Black, who were chased out in part by anti-CRT efforts in 2021.

Sure sounds like right-wing cancel culture to me.

Odds are, you haven't heard of them.

All the examples you gave were of famous people. But Steven Pinker is not cancelled. Sean Penn is not cancelled. JK Rowling is not cancelled. Not in any meaningful sense.

Operatively speaking, "cancel culture" seem to mean "rich and powerful who don't like to be criticized".

And it's pretty easy to show - define "cancel culture", then see how well it applies to many right-wing actions, like the Southern Baptist Convention's 8 year boycott of Disney, or the broad right-wing opposition to Kaepernick's kneel, which was much less than the recent Supreme Court judgement concerning a "quiet" prayer at the 50-yard line.

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