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Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

jacquesmattheij.com

211–220 of 280 posts

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a note, there is a followup paper to "The Camel Has Two Humps". From the abstract: Two years ago we appeared to have discovered an exciting and enigmatic new predictor of success in a first programming course. We now report that after six experiments, involving more than 500 students at six institutions in three countries, the predictive effect of our test has failed to live up to that early promise. http://www.…

The new paper didn't say that the problem wasn't correct, just that their original solution (test) didn't work out. It's true that it seems to be hard to come up with a reliable test for this sort of thing, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible.

The magic market fairy can't help supply and demand equilibrate until the simple test exists, right?

My only point is that the problem isn't creation of a public good, the problem is that reliably identifying good people/good matches is really hard.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#212
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

true, but their product is not software, nor do the dev team develop anything outward-facing. i'm not saying that some of the funds aren't great places for a techie to work (anecdotally, if jane street capital had an office in san francisco i'd have been tempted to apply there), it's just that there is no perception of them as enjoyable places for a dev to work. pushing money around simply doesn't excite me, and i da…

I agree there isn't a perception of them being an enjoyable place to work; I think that is more due to the fact that one isn't really encouraged to talk about it, and the most successful actively avoid the limelight! Now there are plenty of sweatshops out there, but there are also plenty of tech companies I wouldn't touch with a barge pool. Many people, even at Google, will be writing coding that isn't The Product. H…

fair point, i've never really worked in a trading company, so i have very little room to talk. and you do make your job sound like a lot of fun :)

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#213
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

true, but their product is not software, nor do the dev team develop anything outward-facing. i'm not saying that some of the funds aren't great places for a techie to work (anecdotally, if jane street capital had an office in san francisco i'd have been tempted to apply there), it's just that there is no perception of them as enjoyable places for a dev to work. pushing money around simply doesn't excite me, and i da…

I agree there isn't a perception of them being an enjoyable place to work; I think that is more due to the fact that one isn't really encouraged to talk about it, and the most successful actively avoid the limelight! Now there are plenty of sweatshops out there, but there are also plenty of tech companies I wouldn't touch with a barge pool. Many people, even at Google, will be writing coding that isn't The Product. H…

That does sound like fun. Can you address how meaningful the work feels to you too? (I don't mean the question to be provocative.)

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm more familiar with how BigCorp engineering works than startups, but I haven't heard of a place that doesn't use pay in performance reviews in some way or another, maybe unofficially, the idea being that what constitutes "good performance" for someone making $200k has to be a higher bar than for someone making $100k, or else why would you not just hire more of the $100k people? They have to be doing more or better…

Current pay is used in salary reviews everywhere. But that's obviously a terrible, terrible reason not to negotiate today. How can you possibly be worse off in a salary raise negotiation than by having the money you deserved at entry held by the employer as a concession at your employment review ? The go-to person for the hardest problems (who you generally want to be) is usually not chosen by the person who controls…

Thank you for your comments in this whole thread, tptacek.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#215
post #58
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spot on. (d) in particular is worth stressing. There is no difficulty in attracting and retaining talent. There is simply an unwillingness to pay them what they're worth and give them an environment in which they'd want to work. Supply and demand. It's pretty simple. Yet so many (typically business types) want to treat engineers as an interchangeable cost center. "5 years ago an engineer cost $100k so I refuse to pay…

The reason why business types see engineers as cost centers is because engineers have positioned themselves that way. Engineers pushed for higher salary in lieu of the variable upside. What engineers really need to do is to put more skin in the game. Push for more equity, even if it means accepting a smaller salary. All too often I see programmers who just want a 9-5 that pays 6 figures even if the company is seeing…

[deleted]

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#216
post #58
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spot on. (d) in particular is worth stressing. There is no difficulty in attracting and retaining talent. There is simply an unwillingness to pay them what they're worth and give them an environment in which they'd want to work. Supply and demand. It's pretty simple. Yet so many (typically business types) want to treat engineers as an interchangeable cost center. "5 years ago an engineer cost $100k so I refuse to pay…

The reason why business types see engineers as cost centers is because engineers have positioned themselves that way. Engineers pushed for higher salary in lieu of the variable upside. What engineers really need to do is to put more skin in the game. Push for more equity, even if it means accepting a smaller salary. All too often I see programmers who just want a 9-5 that pays 6 figures even if the company is seeing…

>What engineers really need to do is to put more skin in the game. Push for more equity, even if it means accepting a smaller salary.

I disagree strongly. With that plan, (assuming you corrected the problem that most options at pre-public companies are basically revocable at any time.) you'd end up with a bunch of guys like me; Sellswords who are halfway to becoming a business people. And you know? even if you do keep us for a while, it's not going to be for long; my personal policy, when working for other people, is to always be looking, and jump if someone offers me 20% more. Loyalty? you are paying me 20% below market, how about you show me some loyalty.

People like me? we're probably better off running our own companies. Really, if you want the skills people like me have? you are probably best off contracting with our company for the work.

The sort of person who likes to be an employee is, well, rather different. They are usually quite risk-averse compared to someone like me. They don't want to have to worry too much about money; they want to do the job they are interested in, and they want the money problem to largely go away. Generally speaking, unless you want the employee to sell or, you know, be a business person for you? these sorts of people are far superior to people like me, after equalizing for skill.

If you want to keep these sorts of people? offer them raises before they ask. Remove hassles from their lives. help them move. free them from the drudgery of cooking.

In short, I think you need to make them feel like /you/ are loyal to /them/ - that's something they value. Doing this while remaining, you know, honest can be somewhat difficult. I dono. I personally try to continue to give some benefits to ex-employees. I give them free co-location for life. I am generous in references. If I have to get rid of someone, I try to find them another job with someone else. One guy who was a contractor for me for a while who left for a larger ISP, well, he got fired from the new job. I had already replaced him, but I've been helping him out with his resume and stuff.

I think what these people want is to be treated like friends rather than like resources. Which is kinda interesting, because if you deal with someone like me? I mean, sure, being friendly is great. But I'm going to feel flattered, and think of you as a honest and straightforward person if you treat me as a valuable resource rather than as a friend (I mean, in a business context)

Google, I think does a really good job of all of that, and now it sounds like they are also doing a good job of making 'the money problem' just go away.

One of my employees told me that he was recently approached by a google recruiter. He said he felt really guilty, like he was betraying me by going to the interview.

To me? his feelings are rather foreign. I mean, considering the difference between what google would pay him and what I pay him, no reasonable person would criticize him for jumping to google; if anything the reasonable person would say that he had a right to feel a little offended that I'm paying him so little, when according to google, he's worth much more.

But understanding how these sorts of people think and keeping them happy is key to retaining the workers you want long-term. It's a hard thing for a business owner to do, because hey, we're business owners... if we thought that way, we would never have struck out on our own.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#217
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being able to 'talk the talk' will not get you a job at Google. You have to be a very strong problem solver, a fast thinker, and lucky. All Googlers might not be rockstar programmers, but they are almost all unusually intelligent. There really are no average people there, apart perhaps those that came in through acquisitions (like myself).

So I've heard. And yet, I can guarantee you Google has hired at least two dim bulbs. Well, that can happen. After all, it can only be so efficient, and some people sound a lot more intelligent than they really are (which is why we hired them). But it all makes me wonder how good Google's internal processes are, and how long it's willing to wait for people to become productive.

and ironically, my employer has hired at least one dim bulb from Google.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#218

This is a nice data point. But if you want to know the real deal, don't talk to fellow programmers. Talk to guys in finance who support the R&D function at tech firms. We know all and see all, everybody else except HR only sees data points. And are you seriously going to trust anybody from HR to interpret numbers? My advice: Do this work because you love it. But negotiate aggressively. Programmers don't push as hard…

Care to elaborate about these plans?

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#219

At Google, Sr. SWE makes about $155K if female, about $180K if male. Base salary. Bonuses and refresher grants are also skewed accordingly. These are 2011 numbers, personally researched.

I'm surprised that gender-based pay differences aren't addressed at Google?

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#220
post #80

tl;dr There was a hasty generalization based on one dibious number made about Google salaries being higher than Glassdoor's poll-based estimate.

well based on several people on this thread revealing their total compensation packages, the 250k number does not seem false. ..And I am incredibly jealous...why I am remotely working on a Sunday for a fraction of that? Even though my cost of living is less...I live in a major metropolitain canadian city, I know of several people from Uni who moved to the states in jobs like that.

>> ...why I am remotely working on a Sunday for a fraction of that?

Asking myself the same question today..

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