Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up) • Hacker News Board

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#121

Post by tryitnow » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 6:54 PM UTC

This is a nice data point. But if you want to know the real deal, don't talk to fellow programmers. Talk to guys in finance who support the R&D function at tech firms. We know all and see all, everybody else except HR only sees data points. And are you seriously going to trust anybody from HR to interpret numbers?

My advice: Do this work because you love it. But negotiate aggressively. Programmers don't push as hard as other types of employees, there's no real cost to pushing on compensation, just don't be a jerk about it. Read books, blogs, etc on compensation negotiating tactics.

Bottom line: This compensation will not last and plans are already in the works to put an end to it. I will bet money that 2-3 years from now people will be wailing about the drop in programmer comp.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#122

Post by koalaman » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 7:08 PM UTC

tsotha wrote: post #51

baddspellar wrote: post #12

Does anyone know if they have an active program to cut the bottom performers? If not, I suspect they have quite a collection of overpaid mediocre programmers. I worked for many years at a company that paid significantly higher than average salaries. Even with a program to cut the bottom 10% per year, we had quite a few people who were mediocre at best. It's easier for a busy manager to hold onto the people they have…

That's what I was wondering. Two former employees from my group have ended up at the Goog. Both of them can talk the talk in an interview, but they're both below average as programmers. They're both still there, too. If Google is paying either of them $250k it's time to short the stock.

Being able to 'talk the talk' will not get you a job at Google. You have to be a very strong problem solver, a fast thinker, and lucky. All Googlers might not be rockstar programmers, but they are almost all unusually intelligent. There really are no average people there, apart perhaps those that came in through acquisitions (like myself).

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#123

Post by xiaoma » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 7:09 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #67

anonsalaryqtion wrote: post #59

I've been meaning to ask some of my founder friends about this. I've casually heard that Google and Facebook have driven the starting salary for Bay Area developers up above $150k/yr for college kids with no experience. I'm a talented 25 year-old web developer who jumped from contracting to full time a year ago. I received a $110k/yr (not eligible for bonus) offer. The people I asked at the time said it was a competi…

I see boxes in on job applications for "expected annual salary" and I don't know what to put. "Negotiable", "Market rate", etc. That box is asking you to compromise your negotiating position. There is no legal or moral stricture that says you have to oblige them. The people I asked at the time said it was a competitive salary and not worth negotiating. This makes me angry. Of course it is worth negotiating. What woul…

>the worst possible outcome would have been accepting the offer at $110k, and nobody at your company would care either way because the difference is bat guano to them.

That's a pretty unimaginative worst possible offer. The company could pay you 115k, resent it, and use it as justification to give you various shit-work. I've seen that happen to a friend and it actually hurt his mid term learning and career growth.

It's also fairly common for a company to simply choose to fill the position with someone who's less troublesome.

If you have an exceptional value to offer a company then, you have significant room for negotiation. If your skill is a common commodity, you likely won't.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#124

Post by endtime » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 7:12 PM UTC

veyron wrote: post #49

patio11 wrote: post #47

HN has a curious relationship to money some of the time. a) Many of us watched our classmates go into management consulting, investment banking, finance, medicine, law, etc. These are all fields where $250k is not exactly outlandish for a 29 year old. b) We have a lot of friendly, accessible fellow posters who write computer code and are financially very successful. c) We talk about $X million valuations and $YY mill…

The problem seems to stem from the fact that most people are presented with paltry-sounding offers from places like google. As is mentioned in many of the response here, it seems that the guy probably quoted total compensation. However, prima facie the only number people see is the salary number from their offer. The offer doesn't tell you how good the bonus will be, nor can you immediately appreciate stuff like 401K…

This is highly relevant. I had an offer from Google with a base salary lower than a competing offer from a startup...but when I factoried in benefits, stock, etc. on both sides Google's offer was about 50% larger. Of course, you're eating the same food as you get promoted, so some benefits/perks become a smaller fraction of your comp as your total comp goes up, but they're still significant around 250k.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#125

Post by tptacek » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 7:14 PM UTC

xiaoma wrote: post #123

patio11 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see boxes in on job applications for "expected annual salary" and I don't know what to put. "Negotiable", "Market rate", etc. That box is asking you to compromise your negotiating position. There is no legal or moral stricture that says you have to oblige them. The people I asked at the time said it was a competitive salary and not worth negotiating. This makes me angry. Of course it is worth negotiating. What woul…

> the worst possible outcome would have been accepting the offer at $110k, and nobody at your company would care either way because the difference is bat guano to them. That's a pretty unimaginative worst possible offer. The company could pay you 115k, resent it, and use it as justification to give you various shit-work. I've seen that happen to a friend and it actually hurt his mid term learning and career growth. I…

Any company that treats you like shit because you negotiated a 5k bump over their first comp offer is a company you are better off not working for. And, please, read that sentence again.

The worst case scenario is that you accept their first offer and don't find out until you've spent a year and a half of your life working there that the company isn't worth working for. That is the worst case.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#126

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 7:14 PM UTC

mvgoogler wrote: post #86

raldi wrote: post #37

Speaking as a Google engineer: There are three components to compensation here. Base salary, annual cash bonus, and stock grants. When he says he "takes home" $250k, he probably means the sum of all three. When the author says he thought the average Google salary was $130k, he might be referring just to the base. Most of the comments in this thread are similarly ambiguous. If you post a comment, please be clear about…

Yeah, 250K total comp (salary + bonuses + stock) is very believable. It's likely upper end of the scale for a 30 year-old, but completely believable.

[deleted]

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#127

Post by tptacek » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 7:15 PM UTC

wanorris wrote: post #76

veyron wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For private companies with no plans to sell, ideally it would be an arrangement where the engineer receives shares (in a C corp) or is written into the operating agreement as a partner (in an LLC or LP) but a profit sharing agreement would have the same effect. In major law firms, the associates aspire to become partners in the firm, which is analogous to my interpretation when saying "equity".

Actually, setting up software firms where the best developers can "make partner" would be quite an interesting approach. I'm not sure it would work, but if it did, it could be a perfect solution for keeping a great team together for the long haul.

The amount of politics and backbiting and sabotage that gets mixed in with partner-track programs is horrifying. Find an incentive scheme that empowers first-year hires to do amazing things for your company.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#128

Post by Selvik » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 7:17 PM UTC

fake_handle wrote: post #54

googlethrowaway wrote: post #42

As a point of data, I work at Google and am at a similar point in my career. My base salary a year ago was $136k, but there was a companywide 10% raise last winter, and now my base is $150k. You get a cash bonus each year that's around 15% of your base, but if you're a superstar it can be double that, or if you're a total disappointment, it can be nothing. But if I perform as expected, that's another $22k. Finally, I…

Adding to the data pool: I'm also an under-30 engineer making ~250k in the Bay Area (at a publicly-traded gaming company, not at Google). My company has six pay grades for pure engineers; I'm at the second highest. My 2011 comp breaks down as follows: * 166k base * 45k bonus * 35k stock grants (RSUs) Note this does not include 401k matching, stock purchase plan, healthcare, or any other quantifiable perks. When I too…

Isn't a perfect math score very hard to get, something like the upper 1%ile? Do you know your IQ? I'm scandinavian and could do a traditional finance/consulting/management/accounting thing in my home country but the software industry seems far more fascinating. I'm afraid my 120 to 125 iq means I'm too stupid to do well in SV though.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#129

Post by endtime » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 7:17 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #72

gujk wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think perks and stock are not part of compensation?

They are, but consider that they are very volatile. When I worked at Yahoo, my stock added an equivalent of about $50k/year to my total compensation for the period I worked there. But I was lucky - I joined at a low and left and cashed out all my options with Yahoo trading at one of its highest amounts of the last 7-8 years. At the same time I had people working for me who had 10 times as many options, but had been i…

I'm not sure Google gives out options...I think they generally give RSUs.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#130

Post by stef25 » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 7:25 PM UTC

raldi wrote: post #37

Speaking as a Google engineer: There are three components to compensation here. Base salary, annual cash bonus, and stock grants. When he says he "takes home" $250k, he probably means the sum of all three. When the author says he thought the average Google salary was $130k, he might be referring just to the base. Most of the comments in this thread are similarly ambiguous. If you post a comment, please be clear about…

Without wanting to sound stupid, when you talk about salaries do you always mention the amount before or after tax? Here in Europe it's almost always after tax.