Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up) • Hacker News Board

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#51

Post by tsotha » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 4:00 PM UTC

baddspellar wrote: post #12

Does anyone know if they have an active program to cut the bottom performers? If not, I suspect they have quite a collection of overpaid mediocre programmers. I worked for many years at a company that paid significantly higher than average salaries. Even with a program to cut the bottom 10% per year, we had quite a few people who were mediocre at best. It's easier for a busy manager to hold onto the people they have…

That's what I was wondering. Two former employees from my group have ended up at the Goog. Both of them can talk the talk in an interview, but they're both below average as programmers. They're both still there, too. If Google is paying either of them $250k it's time to short the stock.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#52

Post by mseebach » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 4:03 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #13

Another effect this will have on the start-up scene is that if you build your company in 'The Valley' that companies like Google will be competing with you for talent. You may have an upside from being in the SV eco-system in the first place, however you may find yourself paying a lot more for developers than if you were in a place where parties with pockets as deep as Google are rare. Headquarters in Silicon Valley,…

While it might be harder to get good employees cheaply, you would expect that finding financially independent co-founders would be easier.

If you have reasonable financial discipline, 5 years of $250,000 can easily build yourself a war chest of a few years living expenses: the perfect co-founder.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#53

Post by kabdib » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 4:05 PM UTC

For someone with ~ 10 years of experience who has a very good track record, I could see a total compensation package of that order.

Joe Shlub is not going to get this. But I've worked with very good developers (e.g., guys at Apple who were instrumental in making whizzy stuff happen in the Mac's graphics stack) who are worth this, and more.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#54

Post by fake_handle » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 4:05 PM UTC

googlethrowaway wrote: post #42

As a point of data, I work at Google and am at a similar point in my career. My base salary a year ago was $136k, but there was a companywide 10% raise last winter, and now my base is $150k. You get a cash bonus each year that's around 15% of your base, but if you're a superstar it can be double that, or if you're a total disappointment, it can be nothing. But if I perform as expected, that's another $22k. Finally, I…

Adding to the data pool:

I'm also an under-30 engineer making ~250k in the Bay Area (at a publicly-traded gaming company, not at Google). My company has six pay grades for pure engineers; I'm at the second highest. My 2011 comp breaks down as follows:

* 166k base

* 45k bonus

* 35k stock grants (RSUs)

Note this does not include 401k matching, stock purchase plan, healthcare, or any other quantifiable perks.

When I took this job a year ago, I had a similar offer from a prominent NYC startup: ~220k (150k base, 30k bonus, 250k options over 4 years using offer-time valuation). I was 26 at the time.

For added context, I did not attend an elite school. I did not complete my undergraduate degree. I'm smart, but not extraordinarily so (800/710 math/verbal SAT). I interview well. I have a "disruptive" skill (cloud expertise).

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#55

Post by tsotha » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 4:06 PM UTC

nknight wrote: post #34

gwillen wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's laws state that IP can only be contractually assigned to the employer if it is "related to the employer's business or [to the employer's] actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development." Google's position, when I was there, appeared to be that 1) any web app and 2) any app for any phone or tablet, was "related to ... actual or demonstrably anticipated R&D."

There's a lot Google could claim under California law, but that's almost certainly too broad an interpretation to make it through court unmodified. Ignoring the PR problem, if they sued one of their engineers over, say, an iPhone racing game, a sane judge is going to make them work pretty damn hard to demonstrate that it has any relation to their business.

Leaving aside, of course, the wisdom of losing your $250k job over a game that nets you $753.32 over its lifetime.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#56

Post by surt » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 4:13 PM UTC

shin_lao wrote: post #14

$ 250,000 a year must include stocks, bonus, 401k and healthcare. As is, it doesn't match the insider information I have about Google's salaries. Let's be realistic a minute, $ 250k/year is a lot of money.

Probably not health care. The value of that is hard to deduce. Possibly not 401k match. Most people don't factor that into their totals. Traditionally, compensation package for an engineer means salary, bonus, stock.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#57

Post by rudy750 » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 4:20 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #28

Let me add some perspective to this as both an engineer and a Google employee. The first thing I'll say is this: people lie about their incomes. They even do this anonymously (Glassdoor, etc). Not that I'm calling (or even suggesting) this a lie but be very careful believing anyone's salary claims unless they show you an original offer letter, employment contract or a W-2. I'm not even sure if they're simply bad at m…

Do you or anyone else know how much/little Google outsources their development work? I was having a discussion with a fellow engineer about the outsourcing model and innovation.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#58

Post by veyron » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 4:23 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #50

patio11 wrote: post #47

HN has a curious relationship to money some of the time. a) Many of us watched our classmates go into management consulting, investment banking, finance, medicine, law, etc. These are all fields where $250k is not exactly outlandish for a 29 year old. b) We have a lot of friendly, accessible fellow posters who write computer code and are financially very successful. c) We talk about $X million valuations and $YY mill…

Spot on. (d) in particular is worth stressing. There is no difficulty in attracting and retaining talent. There is simply an unwillingness to pay them what they're worth and give them an environment in which they'd want to work. Supply and demand. It's pretty simple. Yet so many (typically business types) want to treat engineers as an interchangeable cost center. "5 years ago an engineer cost $100k so I refuse to pay…

The reason why business types see engineers as cost centers is because engineers have positioned themselves that way. Engineers pushed for higher salary in lieu of the variable upside.

What engineers really need to do is to put more skin in the game. Push for more equity, even if it means accepting a smaller salary. All too often I see programmers who just want a 9-5 that pays 6 figures even if the company is seeing hard times, but that won't improve the situation. Most of those business types you mention see engineers in the same way that engineers see themselves: wanting a large, stable paycheck. The business types shoot for the large end of year bonuses, which in general only get paid if the company does well (ignore the TBTF banks for a moment)

As an example of what I mean, most celebrity endorsements are lump sum payments plus a very small variable upside. William Shatner, taking a longer view, pushed Priceline to compensate him (for his celebrity appearance) in the form of equity, and now he's laughing his way to the bank. In this case, he was willing to take the risk.

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#59

Post by anonsalaryqtion » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 4:24 PM UTC

I've been meaning to ask some of my founder friends about this.

I've casually heard that Google and Facebook have driven the starting salary for Bay Area developers up above $150k/yr for college kids with no experience.

I'm a talented 25 year-old web developer who jumped from contracting to full time a year ago. I received a $110k/yr (not eligible for bonus) offer. The people I asked at the time said it was a competitive salary and not worth negotiating.

Now I'm wondering if it's time to move on. I see boxes in on job applications for "expected annual salary" and I don't know what to put. I know the money you save when you're young is what allows you to retire/start a company/etc., and want to make sure I'm being paid competitively. At the same time, I don't want to misread the market and come across as out-of-touch on one of these apps.

Guys, what's the going rate for a talented front-end web developer in the Bay Area about 4 years out of school?

Re: Programmers' salaries at Google $250k (and up)

#60

Post by nandemo » Sun, Nov 06, 2011, 4:34 PM UTC

nateberkopec wrote: post #43

Economics! During a boom time, wages rise. Wages are "sticky", meaning they lag behind the current state of the economy. Wages for programmers have really gone out the roof in the last few years due to lack of US computer science graduates, stingy visa provisions, etc. In a few months, the funding wave will start to level off and dip, but wages will still be as high as ever. That's the crunch. Winter is coming. EDIT:…

That is true, but we're talking about total compensation. Base salary is sticky, but stock options and bonus aren't.