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Boeing CEO says planemaker could be forced to cancel 737 Max 10

reuters.com

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Re: Boeing CEO says planemaker could be forced to cancel 737 Max 10

#61

Post by throwaheyy »

wahern wrote: post #44
ralph84 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boeing ended production of the 757 18 years ago and they still have no strategy for a successor besides more duck tape on the 737.

If I understand the timeline properly, Boeing had a strategy, at least nominally: NMA, an all-new replacement for the 757. Boeing had to be brow-beat by their biggest customers to support the initiative, but at least from the outside they seemed to acquiesce. Airbus responded with the A321XLR, betting it could reach market faster. Boeing countered by dropping NMA and trying to copy the Airbus approach of racing to ma…

What I don’t understand is why Boeing didn’t work with the 757 instead. It’s a much newer design already comparable in size to the A321, and a new 757 variant would have had commonality with many airlines’ existing 757s and not run into the limitations Boeing has had literally “max”ing out the 737.

Re: Boeing CEO says planemaker could be forced to cancel 737 Max 10

#62

Post by metadat »

jedberg wrote: post #57
s1artibartfast wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They're only selling planes because AirBus can't build enough for all customers. That certainly wasn't the case for the A380. A380 is my favorite plane to fly on, but Boeing beat them badly in market analysis. The company sank 25+ Billion in A380 development and cant even cover the cost of manufacture so they shut it down. AB also received 9 billion in EU government aid for the AB380. When it comes to too big to fai…

A real shame too, I love flying on the A380. It's so big it just slides through the air like butter, and the higher cabin pressurization makes you feel more alert when you arrive (plus the fact that you probably slept better since it wasn't bouncing around as much).

Yes, flying first class or even coach in Emirates in an A380 was spectacular and a whole different experience than any other flying, full stop. I wish everyone could experience it.

Re: Boeing CEO says planemaker could be forced to cancel 737 Max 10

#63

Post by Markoff »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #22
awill wrote: post #18

This is literally the 'too big to fail' outcome. Boeing sucks. They're only selling planes because AirBus can't build enough for all customers. It's disappointing that mess after mess they're not held accountable. I suppose on the one hand, the U.S. wants a competitor to AB. But, AB does need a competitor, right? It's not like it's a good thing if Boeing goes away and AB has no competition.

>They're only selling planes because AirBus can't build enough for all customers. That certainly wasn't the case for the A380. A380 is my favorite plane to fly on, but Boeing beat them badly in market analysis. The company sank 25+ Billion in A380 development and cant even cover the cost of manufacture so they shut it down. AB also received 9 billion in EU government aid for the AB380. When it comes to too big to fai…

they are bringing it back to service since air travel demand grown, not so sure about production

Re: Boeing CEO says planemaker could be forced to cancel 737 Max 10

#65

Post by surfaceofthesun »

bmitc wrote: post #52
epolanski wrote: post #3

What's the point of this plane? It's not that cheap, it's not that good for fuel efficiency, it misses most modern (decade old) systems like eicas. Seems another odd Boeing plane that woukd only sell because the competition cannot fill all orders.

I wonder if this is an example of the downsides of not just doing something right from the beginning. If I understand correctly, this whole 737 Max kerfuffle was born out of Boeing trying to reduce costs for their "new" airplane by retrofitting an old one, intending to save on all sorts of costs. I don't know much about airplane development and manufacturing, but it almost seems like it would have been cheaper to jus…

My understanding is that building it correctly would require airport gates to be upgraded + pilot retraining. That would have killed the competitive advantage against the A320Neo.

Re: Boeing CEO says planemaker could be forced to cancel 737 Max 10

#66

Post by bmitc »

surfaceofthesun wrote: post #65
bmitc wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if this is an example of the downsides of not just doing something right from the beginning. If I understand correctly, this whole 737 Max kerfuffle was born out of Boeing trying to reduce costs for their "new" airplane by retrofitting an old one, intending to save on all sorts of costs. I don't know much about airplane development and manufacturing, but it almost seems like it would have been cheaper to jus…

My understanding is that building it correctly would require airport gates to be upgraded + pilot retraining. That would have killed the competitive advantage against the A320Neo.

As far as I know, pilots have been forced to retrain anyway due to the crashes and the revelations of the MCAS and other systems being much different than the existing 737. So I don't think that was saved.

I'm fairly certain I recall some pilots flying the day or sometime before one of the planes that crashed had the exact same issue with the same plane that crashed. Again, if I recall correctly, that pilot happened to be able to figure out the issue and was able to disable the system. So, it's really quite pathetic Boeing has been able to get away with this for so long. They knowingly lied and hundreds of people died because of that.

Re: Boeing CEO says planemaker could be forced to cancel 737 Max 10

#67

Post by t_mann »

Recently, an Airbus A380 just continued to fly for 10h+ with a torn exterior like it was nothing. Boeing have failed to make use of a 2+ years (!) Covid-induced grace period to fix a plane that was apparently designed by accountants and MBAs rather than engineers.

It is time to stop putting profits over people's safety and call an end to this debacle.

Re: Boeing CEO says planemaker could be forced to cancel 737 Max 10

#68

Post by t_mann »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #22
awill wrote: post #18

This is literally the 'too big to fail' outcome. Boeing sucks. They're only selling planes because AirBus can't build enough for all customers. It's disappointing that mess after mess they're not held accountable. I suppose on the one hand, the U.S. wants a competitor to AB. But, AB does need a competitor, right? It's not like it's a good thing if Boeing goes away and AB has no competition.

>They're only selling planes because AirBus can't build enough for all customers. That certainly wasn't the case for the A380. A380 is my favorite plane to fly on, but Boeing beat them badly in market analysis. The company sank 25+ Billion in A380 development and cant even cover the cost of manufacture so they shut it down. AB also received 9 billion in EU government aid for the AB380. When it comes to too big to fai…

> The company sank 25+ Billion in A380 development and cant even cover the cost of manufacture so they shut it down

Yes, and then they quickly pivoted to building the A320neo, and that one just flies without issues, because apparently they know how to build planes that conform to modern safety standards.

If Boeing does go down, the US government would very quickly copy the French playbook of building massive state-backed enterprises that was also used to create Airbus. No serious competition for Airbus wouldn't be good for anyone, but it wouldn't come to that. That should not be the reason why Boeing is allowed to continue.

Re: Boeing CEO says planemaker could be forced to cancel 737 Max 10

#69

Post by t_mann »

structural wrote: post #31
OneHotEncoder wrote: post #27

In a way it is a good thing. They should be forced to take many steps back and look at where they bungled up. For starters, not trying to fix aerodynamic issues with software patches, and getting honest engineering back at the helm should be on the top of the list.

It's hard when your customers are requiring you to do mutually exclusive things. First, reduce fuel consumption by significant amounts, which requires changes to aerodynamics or engines (this is just physics). Second, don't make any major changes, because major changes would be too expensive for customers to implement and make the whole project not feasible. There's no "honest engineering" that will solve the problem…

> There's no "honest engineering" that will solve the problem

There very much is: tell the customers that changing aerodynamics means changing the plane. Full stop.

Re: Boeing CEO says planemaker could be forced to cancel 737 Max 10

#70

Post by aviat »

MilStdJunkie wrote: post #15
sklargh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know if that is the consensus but I struggle to find a major program there that isn’t completely rotten.

Yeah, I challenge anyone to show me a unconditionally successful Boeing program post 2000 AD. Please. Please show one to me. I am begging you here. Aboulafia had like fifty graphs on exactly how Boeing is doomed, at least as a unified company; they might survive in pieces after a GE-style split. Big B is spending all their money on precisely the wrong products, and leaving the right products to die on the vine. This…

Boeing T-7 Redhawk
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