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Why roller coaster loops aren’t circular anymore

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Re: Why roller coaster loops aren’t circular anymore

#21
post #6

Am I high or is the picture of the flip flap railroad loop decidedly not circular?

You’re high. But also the photo was taken at an angle to the track, so it’s not gonna trace out a circle on your screen.

No, he’s not wrong. The exit is about 20 ft further forward than the entrance.

A true circular loop the entrance and exit would be directly side by side.

Re: Why roller coaster loops aren’t circular anymore

#22
post #18

If I remember my uni engineering/calculus maths class correctly, the third derivative of position is used in planning these sort of curves. The first derivative of postion (with respect to time) is velocity. The second derivative is acceleration (ie rate of change of velocity). And the third derivative is jerk (rate of change of acceleration). And 'jerk' has to be kept below a certain threshold for humans to find mov…

Also seen in the planning of curves in roads (where jerk corresponds to the rate at which a steering wheel must be turned) and railways.

And this is also why the passengers jerk of a vehicle jerk backwards after it comes to a complete stop. Their muscles statically counter the relative forwards acceleration of their torsos during braking and require time to react to the acceleration suddenly going away. This effect can be prevented by gradually letting off the brake before reapplying it fully upon stopping, but few drivers and rapid transit systems seem to be aware.

Re: Why roller coaster loops aren’t circular anymore

#23
post #18

If I remember my uni engineering/calculus maths class correctly, the third derivative of position is used in planning these sort of curves. The first derivative of postion (with respect to time) is velocity. The second derivative is acceleration (ie rate of change of velocity). And the third derivative is jerk (rate of change of acceleration). And 'jerk' has to be kept below a certain threshold for humans to find mov…

Jounce, crackle and pop for the 4th, 5th and sixth derivatives

Re: Why roller coaster loops aren’t circular anymore

#24
post #22
post #18

If I remember my uni engineering/calculus maths class correctly, the third derivative of position is used in planning these sort of curves. The first derivative of postion (with respect to time) is velocity. The second derivative is acceleration (ie rate of change of velocity). And the third derivative is jerk (rate of change of acceleration). And 'jerk' has to be kept below a certain threshold for humans to find mov…

Also seen in the planning of curves in roads (where jerk corresponds to the rate at which a steering wheel must be turned) and railways. And this is also why the passengers jerk of a vehicle jerk backwards after it comes to a complete stop. Their muscles statically counter the relative forwards acceleration of their torsos during braking and require time to react to the acceleration suddenly going away. This effect c…

> but few drivers or rapid transit systems seem to be aware

I find that amazing. What the heck are drivers ed instructors doing? It's not just hard on the passengers, it's hard on the machinery.

It's the same with the clutch. I've driven with enough people who fancy themselves as great shifters, but they jerk the hell out of the clutch every time, never attempting to match the shaft speed with the engine speed. If I comment on it, they always deny doing that :-/

If I'm on my game, I can shift smoother than an automatic. The bonus is the clutch will last a very long time.

Re: Why roller coaster loops aren’t circular anymore

#25
post #20
post #18

If I remember my uni engineering/calculus maths class correctly, the third derivative of position is used in planning these sort of curves. The first derivative of postion (with respect to time) is velocity. The second derivative is acceleration (ie rate of change of velocity). And the third derivative is jerk (rate of change of acceleration). And 'jerk' has to be kept below a certain threshold for humans to find mov…

I have a t-shirt which has "don't be a" and the equation for the third derivative

Better than my schwarzchild radius nerd shirt!

Re: Why roller coaster loops aren’t circular anymore

#26
post #22
post #18

If I remember my uni engineering/calculus maths class correctly, the third derivative of position is used in planning these sort of curves. The first derivative of postion (with respect to time) is velocity. The second derivative is acceleration (ie rate of change of velocity). And the third derivative is jerk (rate of change of acceleration). And 'jerk' has to be kept below a certain threshold for humans to find mov…

Also seen in the planning of curves in roads (where jerk corresponds to the rate at which a steering wheel must be turned) and railways. And this is also why the passengers jerk of a vehicle jerk backwards after it comes to a complete stop. Their muscles statically counter the relative forwards acceleration of their torsos during braking and require time to react to the acceleration suddenly going away. This effect c…

It's a little more complicated than that in a passenger car. The deceleration compresses the front springs. When the car comes to a stop, the springs decompress and the front of the car pops up and the body of the car moves slightly backwards even though the wheels are now stationary.

Re: Why roller coaster loops aren’t circular anymore

#28

Note that the narrow-loop shape in modern roller-coasters means that the tightest curve is at the top, where the G-forces are partially countered by gravity. That's an 1-G that they can subtract, and it means the radius can be significantly larger on entry to the loop, resulting in smaller G-forces.

Not just gravity, but the train also loses speed at the top, so the loop needs to tighten if you want to maintain the same force (you might not want this).

Re: Why roller coaster loops aren’t circular anymore

#29
post #18

If I remember my uni engineering/calculus maths class correctly, the third derivative of position is used in planning these sort of curves. The first derivative of postion (with respect to time) is velocity. The second derivative is acceleration (ie rate of change of velocity). And the third derivative is jerk (rate of change of acceleration). And 'jerk' has to be kept below a certain threshold for humans to find mov…

Jounce, crackle and pop for the 4th, 5th and sixth derivatives

Jounce, also known as snap. Which to people of a certain cultural background explains where the names for the 5th and 6th derivatives come from.

Re: Why roller coaster loops aren’t circular anymore

#30
post #18

If I remember my uni engineering/calculus maths class correctly, the third derivative of position is used in planning these sort of curves. The first derivative of postion (with respect to time) is velocity. The second derivative is acceleration (ie rate of change of velocity). And the third derivative is jerk (rate of change of acceleration). And 'jerk' has to be kept below a certain threshold for humans to find mov…

Jounce, crackle and pop for the 4th, 5th and sixth derivatives

It feels wrong to me that pop comes after crackle. Crackle seems like the ultimate high-frequency effect. In fact, "pop" seems like it should come before "snap". But I guess it is somewhat arbitrary.
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