Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means • Hacker News Board

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#71

Post by barrysteve » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:25 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #62

barrysteve wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent. ... How many of us write programs, support infrastructure, design gadgets … for what? What is important ? Our job… buying gadgets… traveling.. Steve Jobs always wanted to hire people who had a liberal arts education. He knew there was more to making tech objects than stem.

Unfortunately it's a losing game, by now, the future Steve Jobs-es will have to dig even harder in order to find people with liberal arts education who might also be valuable in some STEM field. The latest example (and the one that also made me think along those same lines as your post) is this otherwise really interesting Economist article [1] about gender quotas among Finland's teacher corps (like I said, really in…

Most schools and universities aim their curriculum at getting jobs in industry. It's been a long time since we could rely on the university system to guide students toward genius or virtue and away from money making rabbit holes.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#72

Post by verisimi » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:33 AM UTC

phs318u wrote: post #48

roody15 wrote: post #29

I am a bit older and have worked in IT now for almost 2 decades. (44 years old) I honestly think the general premise here holds true and perhaps applies to many of us here in computed related occupations. It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent. How many of us write programs, support infrastructure, design gadgets ……

I used to worry about being "successful" until I had an epiphany triggered by my father's death. Do you want to know what success is? Visualise the day of your funeral. Who is there? Are they sad, devastated, in tears? Are they looking at their watch or relieved you're finally gone? What does it say on your headstone? "Here lies roody15. Beloved father, husband, son. Forever in our hearts" Or will it say, "Here lies…

You'd like a Christmas Carol then.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#73

Post by laszlojamf » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:34 AM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #66

dgfitz wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The majority of us focus on our jobs, buy gadgets and take vacations because we don't have the luxuries of time and peace of mind (since our focus is by necessity on the near term), but we'd like to have them. And even a short-term feeling of luxury is better than none. Apparently you’ve never been truly poor.

You've caught me out! I've never come home exhausted from deracking frozen coho salmon for 12 hours. I've never gone without food for days to ensure that I could make rent at the end of the month. I've never agonized over 20 cents. I've never taken 3 hour bus rides to work. Oh no, wait. The opposite. The poor live in a completely different world from the middle class, who live in a completely different world from the…

An old man once told me that an educated person can suffer shortages but will never be poor. He meant educated in the broadest sense of the word, including what de Botton is talking about. I don't mean to take your suffering away from you, but just to point out that focusing on material things even in the near term is a choice. It doesn't cost anything to build relationships and invest in your mental health. It doesn't even take much time. It just requires conscious effort.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#74

Post by verisimi » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:41 AM UTC

roody15 wrote: post #29

I am a bit older and have worked in IT now for almost 2 decades. (44 years old) I honestly think the general premise here holds true and perhaps applies to many of us here in computed related occupations. It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent. How many of us write programs, support infrastructure, design gadgets ……

> It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent.

100%. Worse than that, I think we are even encouraged to be computer-like. We are told that AI can be conscious - that we are just a machine. As if emotions/intuition/spirituality are non-existent.

The core problem for me is that the principles that drive most us are not our own - they are installed in us by school, society, etc.

You can take the time to work out what they really should be. Eg is trying to be based in truth a valuable principle? What am I assuming and have not verified? Is the 'golden rule' a principle that I should follow (don't do unto other as I wouldn't have done to me)? What happens when I follow this?

The way I think about it is that when we die, we judge ourselves. You can bullshit your boss, neighbour, partner even - but you can't bullshit yourself. You know why you choose what you choose, and whether this accords with the principles you purport to hold. If you choose according to your heart, whether you believe in life after death or not, there is a value to it in the here and now.

No, money/jobs/[some other provided external goal] isn't everything; being yourself and living authentically according to your heart is.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#75

Post by zupatol » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:43 AM UTC

emmelaich wrote: post #51

phs318u wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to worry about being "successful" until I had an epiphany triggered by my father's death. Do you want to know what success is? Visualise the day of your funeral. Who is there? Are they sad, devastated, in tears? Are they looking at their watch or relieved you're finally gone? What does it say on your headstone? "Here lies roody15. Beloved father, husband, son. Forever in our hearts" Or will it say, "Here lies…

Whoa, I thought > Beloved father, husband, son. Forever in our hearts" was brutally generic but then ... > He was a good employee Which is worse than "he was a decent man" [0]. Oof. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Stone_(character)

"He was a decent man" sounds like a worthy ambition. I'd be proud of "He wasn't a dick".

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#76

Post by kstenerud » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:43 AM UTC

laszlojamf wrote: post #73

kstenerud wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've caught me out! I've never come home exhausted from deracking frozen coho salmon for 12 hours. I've never gone without food for days to ensure that I could make rent at the end of the month. I've never agonized over 20 cents. I've never taken 3 hour bus rides to work. Oh no, wait. The opposite. The poor live in a completely different world from the middle class, who live in a completely different world from the…

An old man once told me that an educated person can suffer shortages but will never be poor. He meant educated in the broadest sense of the word, including what de Botton is talking about. I don't mean to take your suffering away from you, but just to point out that focusing on material things even in the near term is a choice. It doesn't cost anything to build relationships and invest in your mental health. It doesn…

And here's an old man telling you that you absolutely CAN be poor. Poverty is a trap that's very difficult to escape because it saps all of your mental energy [1]. The mental exhaustion just from dealing with the day-to-day on the edge completely stunts your mental and emotional growth and severely limits your ability to respond to opportunities, which makes it even harder to escape. While the rich are learning how to trade in real estate and money markets, and the middle class are learning tricks to make the most of their 401k, the poor are looking for ways to save a few cents on carrots and bread.

Top that all off with the constant victim blaming (I know you don't mean to, but that's basically what you're doing) and complete lack of empathy, and you have a vicious cycle that only the very lucky escape.

I know that HN is big on the fable of the meritocracy, but that's mainly because a not-insignificant chunk of HNers are in the ruling class, and most of the rest are hopeful to enter someday, somehow.

[1] https://phys.org/news/2012-11-poverty-people-focus-short-ter...

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#77

Post by russelldjimmy » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:49 AM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #76

laszlojamf wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An old man once told me that an educated person can suffer shortages but will never be poor. He meant educated in the broadest sense of the word, including what de Botton is talking about. I don't mean to take your suffering away from you, but just to point out that focusing on material things even in the near term is a choice. It doesn't cost anything to build relationships and invest in your mental health. It doesn…

And here's an old man telling you that you absolutely CAN be poor. Poverty is a trap that's very difficult to escape because it saps all of your mental energy [1]. The mental exhaustion just from dealing with the day-to-day on the edge completely stunts your mental and emotional growth and severely limits your ability to respond to opportunities, which makes it even harder to escape. While the rich are learning how t…

I hope you some day will be free of needing to win arguments with strangers on the internet. Peace.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#78

Post by Swenrekcah » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:58 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #65

roody15 wrote: post #29

I am a bit older and have worked in IT now for almost 2 decades. (44 years old) I honestly think the general premise here holds true and perhaps applies to many of us here in computed related occupations. It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent. How many of us write programs, support infrastructure, design gadgets ……

> How many of us write programs, support infrastructure, design gadgets … for what? What is important ? Our job… buying gadgets… traveling.. This isn't limited to STEM and computers. It goes for almost everybody.

True but STEM still usually lends itself to less social interaction than many other jobs such as education, nursing, arts, etc.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#79

Post by asta123 » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 9:19 AM UTC

Alain’s School of Life has been excellent for me. Mostly introducing me to well known philosophers, psychologists and summary of their ideas. It fascinated me that challenges analysed by thinkers a century or more ago apply to me today. There I discovered stuff like - 19th century idea how modern man would not need religion and would find meaning in education, art, chosen profession - and here we are none the wiser; Emile Durkheim’s 19th century analysis of people heading for life of opportunity in the cities… and getting more depressed; How differences between Catholic and Protestant Europe could be shaping our approach to work today... Shame my introduction to philosophy happens through a YouTube channel and was not part of my education, but I guess needs some life experience to appreciate it.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#80

Post by Swenrekcah » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 9:21 AM UTC

verisimi wrote: post #74

roody15 wrote: post #29

I am a bit older and have worked in IT now for almost 2 decades. (44 years old) I honestly think the general premise here holds true and perhaps applies to many of us here in computed related occupations. It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent. How many of us write programs, support infrastructure, design gadgets ……

> It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent. 100%. Worse than that, I think we are even encouraged to be computer-like. We are told that AI can be conscious - that we are just a machine. As if emotions/intuition/spirituality are non-existent. The core problem for me is that the principles that drive most us are not ou…

I agree that intuition and spirituality is completely discounted in western/scientific culture.

It is entirely possible to be a secular spiritualist. Make it a habit to feel one with nature and the world around you, without any supernaturals entering into the picture.

And funnily enough, for all people dunk on experts and say they can rely on themselves instead, it is pretty much the definition of an expert to be a person that has so much experience with something that they have developed good intuition for it. That’s also why everybody is useless as an expert just coming out of school, they may know all the theory but none of the practicalities.

Anyway I just wanted to say that none of this is incompatible with the premise that we’re basically meat based automata that accidentally developed consciousness. I don’t think we’re anywhere near developing general AI but in principle I don’t see why it couldn’t be done.