Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means • Hacker News Board

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#61

Post by dgfitz » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 7:38 AM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #50

russelldjimmy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read OP’s post carefully, you might notice that they are not being dismissive of working for money, but it seems to me your response to the post treats it as though it is (a strawman). To me, the OP’s post is an inquiry into “why” we do what we do. It is a useful inquiry that may be followed up with personal introspection, which might lead to a better understanding of ourselves if done with integrity. For exam…

The "why" we do what we do is mostly governed by circumstance. And in modern times (the past 5000 or so years), circumstance is almost completely governed by money and politics. The meritocratic ideal is what keeps our minds enslaved. When you have enough security that you have no worries for the medium term, you gain the luxury of time and brain energy to contemplate these things rather than having to focus your tho…

> The majority of us focus on our jobs, buy gadgets and take vacations because we don't have the luxuries of time and peace of mind (since our focus is by necessity on the near term), but we'd like to have them. And even a short-term feeling of luxury is better than none.

Apparently you’ve never been truly poor.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#62

Post by paganel » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 7:47 AM UTC

barrysteve wrote: post #60

roody15 wrote: post #29

I am a bit older and have worked in IT now for almost 2 decades. (44 years old) I honestly think the general premise here holds true and perhaps applies to many of us here in computed related occupations. It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent. How many of us write programs, support infrastructure, design gadgets ……

>It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent. ... How many of us write programs, support infrastructure, design gadgets … for what? What is important ? Our job… buying gadgets… traveling.. Steve Jobs always wanted to hire people who had a liberal arts education. He knew there was more to making tech objects than stem.

Unfortunately it's a losing game, by now, the future Steve Jobs-es will have to dig even harder in order to find people with liberal arts education who might also be valuable in some STEM field.

The latest example (and the one that also made me think along those same lines as your post) is this otherwise really interesting Economist article [1] about gender quotas among Finland's teacher corps (like I said, really interesting article). At some point the authors of the study the article is all about define as "more success" when it comes to the pupils involved in said study those kids that later turned out to study "STEM or medicine" (as it shows up in one of the charts, STEM as a "object of desire" is also explicitly mentioned in the article itself).

So, in a way, it looks like we have already conditioned ourselves (and probably our kids) to look at STEM as inherently more "valuable" than a liberal arts education, which will probably mean even less kids choosing that arts education way.

[1] https://archive.ph/IY9BQ

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#63

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:01 AM UTC

lucas_membrane wrote: post #56

sshine wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... €38.99 on Amazon?

One thing about Alain de Botton that mystifies me is that he was born into a family with 9-digit wealth, and he apparently likes piling up comparatively small sums by monetizing his philosophy habit. Successful authors of multiple books typically write some as an outlet for their genius and some because they need or cannot pass up the money. What motivates him? How much of his writing is outsourced?

According to de Botton he makes money from his work and doesn't have access to the family trust fund.

The UK has a few people - like poverty-cook Jack Monroe - who have faced real financial and emotional challenges and come through them to become inspirational people.

But without becoming Professionally Inspirational™ about it.

de Botton seems like a spoilt dilettante in comparison - an entertainer for the aspirational classes.

IMO someone who has never faced extreme poverty or unusual emotional stress has no business telling others how to live their lives.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#64

Post by barrysteve » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:03 AM UTC

I find it really hard to say anything at all about Alain's work. It's such a nothing burger.

In the work of his I've encountered, he regularly quotes old philosophers without adding anything new, and trying to apply the knowledge of old in new ways. Reading old philosophers and engaging with their work directly, produces the effect of transforming it into your own understanding, you don't need a middleman to re-apply it for you.

His work feels like someone writing as it were a performance, rather than an act of discovery.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#65

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:10 AM UTC

roody15 wrote: post #29

I am a bit older and have worked in IT now for almost 2 decades. (44 years old) I honestly think the general premise here holds true and perhaps applies to many of us here in computed related occupations. It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent. How many of us write programs, support infrastructure, design gadgets ……

> How many of us write programs, support infrastructure, design gadgets … for what? What is important ? Our job… buying gadgets… traveling..

This isn't limited to STEM and computers.

It goes for almost everybody.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#66

Post by kstenerud » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:14 AM UTC

dgfitz wrote: post #61

kstenerud wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "why" we do what we do is mostly governed by circumstance. And in modern times (the past 5000 or so years), circumstance is almost completely governed by money and politics. The meritocratic ideal is what keeps our minds enslaved. When you have enough security that you have no worries for the medium term, you gain the luxury of time and brain energy to contemplate these things rather than having to focus your tho…

> The majority of us focus on our jobs, buy gadgets and take vacations because we don't have the luxuries of time and peace of mind (since our focus is by necessity on the near term), but we'd like to have them. And even a short-term feeling of luxury is better than none. Apparently you’ve never been truly poor.

You've caught me out! I've never come home exhausted from deracking frozen coho salmon for 12 hours. I've never gone without food for days to ensure that I could make rent at the end of the month. I've never agonized over 20 cents. I've never taken 3 hour bus rides to work.

Oh no, wait. The opposite.

The poor live in a completely different world from the middle class, who live in a completely different world from the rich. And the philosophers generally live in the world of the rich, to preach to the world of the middle class. For the poor, there's only religion.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#67

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:14 AM UTC

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #32

karaterobot wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ones I've seen have all seemed fine to me. It's advice, and advice is not a branch of science.

Alain's advice/statements include: - All parties are terrible and you're a terrible person if you like parties - Women date abusive men because they were traumatized as a child, and they avoid nice guys, so be an asshole to women - You can't be a good person unless you had a shitty time growing up, and people only start families to deal with their own shitty family trauma, so, good luck - You are doomed to an unhappy…

You're getting downvoted, but this is barely a caricature.

Here's the man himself holding forth on interior design. Apparently people who like minimalism are compensating for their inner emotional chaos, and people who like rustic country stylings want a break from being overwhelmed by technology. People who have ornate gold everywhere are terrified of being poor.

It's silly pseudo-psychological nonsense - all opinion, with no empirical basis.

Worse, it ignores the existence of competitive status display and class identification.

Worse than that, he's clearly writing about himself and generalising to other people.

There's an entire book of this. If you want to learn nothing about taste or architecture - but more than you want to know about Alain de Botton - you can read it.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=646338...

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#68

Post by toombowoombo » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:18 AM UTC

eurasiantiger wrote: post #37

scotty79 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either nihilism or absurdism has very nice answers for your conundrum.

”Dammit, Jack, we got another one.” ”Another awakening?” ”Yeah.” ”Just do what we always do, make their argument look nihilist or absurdist. Remember to avoid mentioning capitalism and neoconservatism!”

Is this a part of a bigger story or a made-up dialogue created specifically for this post?

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#69

Post by dwaltrip » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:21 AM UTC

abrichr wrote: post #47

kelseyfrog wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has taken a conscious expressed interest in becoming intimately familiar with the world of social interaction and emotion, critically examining this mindset is the first step toward realizing that growth. The "measurable equals real" assumption while a fine heuristic, is just that, a generalization useful for making quick judgements, but leaves a lot on the table - empathy, emotion, personal interactio…

> The difference is striking. Dropping an absolute reliance on Cartesian rationality opened the door for real human connection. I've recently started allowing myself to think in this direction. Can you please provide some specific examples of what this looks like?

The models of the world that we construct are very, very rough approximations. Don't hold on to them too tightly. They may be useful, but they are wrong in many important ways. There is always more to learn about the world and its vast complexity.

Emotions are as important as analytical thought. They are another form of information processing -- they aren't arbitrary. Thought doesn't occur without emotion. You need both. This can be a scary and difficult lesson to learn if one has difficult emotions that have been suppressed. It took me years to work through suppressed emotions, and I'm not fully done yet. A good therapist can help, but they can be hard to find.

Don't take yourself too seriously :) Be gentle and compassionate whenever possible. Especially to yourself. We treat our friends with kindness and love, but ourselves with bitterness and hate -- try to treat yourself like your own best friend.

Ask yourself -- and continue asking as the years go by -- what is a good life? Try to live like that.

Humans aren't meant to be alone. We evolved as a social species. Seek out others to spend quality time with. Forming connections can be difficult in the modern world, but one good social bond can change your life.

---

The above was a very quick brain dump. Hopefully it is helpful in some way :)

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#70

Post by yakak » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:21 AM UTC

amelius wrote: post #59

roody15 wrote: post #29

I am a bit older and have worked in IT now for almost 2 decades. (44 years old) I honestly think the general premise here holds true and perhaps applies to many of us here in computed related occupations. It seems many of us focused on STEM STEM STEM or COMPUTERS COMPUTERS COMPUTERS in education but perhaps are emotionally infantile to an extent. How many of us write programs, support infrastructure, design gadgets ……

Yes, beside bringing in some money, having spent your life as a programmer will not make you a better person than if you had spent your career solving crossword puzzles.

I guess it depends what you mean by better person. How would being a plumber or electrician make you a better person?

Given jobs in a "healthy" economic system, I don't think anyone should do anything if their only goal is to show they improved society through their work. What do we know about the nuns that would have filled mother Teresa roles if she had not displaced them?

When you are done working for income, if you have more useful skills than a crossword puzzle player they can be used in a ~volunteer role that might not otherwise be filled.