Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland • Hacker News Board

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#181

Post by trenchgun » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 7:32 AM UTC

konschubert wrote: post #15

pavon wrote: post #8

As an American it completely breaks my expectations that district heating not only works can be more efficient that decentralized heating. The amount of heat lost just moving water from the water heater on one side of the house to the shower on the other is ridiculously high in houses here. The idea that you can insulate well enough to efficiently move heat across a city is amazing to me.

As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. I think that's mostly due to the high upkeep costs of the system, though, the transmission loss is quite manageable, I think. Of course there are arguments to be made that when accounting for the cost of installing a heating system, and the space it…

Wood burning ovens for heating in city area should not be allowed, that is just idiotic. The amount of deaths and health issues that is going to cause is really nasty.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#182

Post by baybal2 » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 7:41 AM UTC

konschubert wrote: post #15

pavon wrote: post #8

As an American it completely breaks my expectations that district heating not only works can be more efficient that decentralized heating. The amount of heat lost just moving water from the water heater on one side of the house to the shower on the other is ridiculously high in houses here. The idea that you can insulate well enough to efficiently move heat across a city is amazing to me.

As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. I think that's mostly due to the high upkeep costs of the system, though, the transmission loss is quite manageable, I think. Of course there are arguments to be made that when accounting for the cost of installing a heating system, and the space it…

No post body was provided.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#183

Post by galfarragem » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 7:41 AM UTC

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #170

fulafel wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditionally when using combustion plants the great advantage in nordic countries comes from CHP (combined heat and power), you can extract much more energy from the fuel this way vs having separate electricity and heat plants. But yep great insulation in the network is a requirement.

i have been thinking about getting a solar water heater>heat pump>radiator to warm up my home but the costs just dont make sense because of the heat pump. i am told the life expectancy of a good heatpump is like 10 years, that amount divided by only 10 winters it is expected to see is more than what we currently pay for electricity in winters, accepting that we don't currently have whole house heating, (we rely on pe…

My father works in that field. In his opinion heat pumps (with today prices and optimizations) are way overrated. The initial investment and the energy spent (it’s way more than advertised) doesn’t make sense for the average family.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#184

Post by djmips » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 7:42 AM UTC

1123581321 wrote: post #97

com2kid wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. So, in America, it is very common for hot water tanks to suddenly fail, leaking water everywhere and causing massive amounts of property damage and even creating health hazards through mold. In a not-insane world, all hot water tanks would come wi…

Disagree with all of this. Hot water leaks are very rare. Water heater failure usually manifests as cold showers and a quick replacement unit from a plumber. Drain pan with a hose is a more reliable protection than a sensor. Sensors are much more likely to give annoying false positives than to prevent damage; you can see from Rheem discussion forums that they’re not appreciated.

My anecdata doesn't align with yours. I've had a water tank fail and I've known a bunch of other people with the same experience.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#185

Post by killerpopiller » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 7:44 AM UTC

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #170

fulafel wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditionally when using combustion plants the great advantage in nordic countries comes from CHP (combined heat and power), you can extract much more energy from the fuel this way vs having separate electricity and heat plants. But yep great insulation in the network is a requirement.

i have been thinking about getting a solar water heater>heat pump>radiator to warm up my home but the costs just dont make sense because of the heat pump. i am told the life expectancy of a good heatpump is like 10 years, that amount divided by only 10 winters it is expected to see is more than what we currently pay for electricity in winters, accepting that we don't currently have whole house heating, (we rely on pe…

that can't be true. In Germany it is quite a trend now, but they are installed for many years. What I can read in the boards is not that discouraging. Where does this 10 year number come from?

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#186

Post by djmips » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 7:46 AM UTC

zardo wrote: post #59

ethagknight wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is wrong on many levels. Hot water heaters should last a lot longer, and when they fail it’s probably a faulty thermostat or short. Still, water heaters get a drain pan to catch leaks. Lastly, installing a leak detectors are trivial and common. Your condo may have been a bad install or not installed to code. America moves hot water just fine. EDIT: yes water heaters can fail. Usually due to bad install,…

Are you saying its not common for water heaters to fail and cause water damage? Maybe I'm an outlier, but several people have told me that this happened in their homes.

We have several hot water heater apologists in this thread. It's rather amusing.

But I think there must be a regional difference. Maybe hot water tanks fail more depending on the climate or water acidity or something...

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#187

Post by baybal2 » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 7:51 AM UTC

fulafel wrote: post #159

pavon wrote: post #8

As an American it completely breaks my expectations that district heating not only works can be more efficient that decentralized heating. The amount of heat lost just moving water from the water heater on one side of the house to the shower on the other is ridiculously high in houses here. The idea that you can insulate well enough to efficiently move heat across a city is amazing to me.

Traditionally when using combustion plants the great advantage in nordic countries comes from CHP (combined heat and power), you can extract much more energy from the fuel this way vs having separate electricity and heat plants. But yep great insulation in the network is a requirement.

> But yep great insulation in the network is a requirement.

Indeed, even with "free" heat from CHP you can get an economic net loss.

Every house connected is a lot if piping, most of it unproductive — heating empty space, and losses in piping. So CHP district heating work best with large apartment buildings, and worst with single family housing.

This way Danish 65C° district heating for detached housing may be the worst example of district heating adoption.

And even if you do have only commie block style apartments, you may still end with having to add extra heat from local boilers in very cold climates. There regions in Russia where heating eats 1/3 of regional GDP.

But an overall, does district heating makes sense? Hell yes, and it must be made mandatory in the West one way, or another, along with policies to prevent counterproductive outcomes.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#188

Post by matthewsinclair » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 7:58 AM UTC

Dupe?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31999241

I am really intrigued as to how some posts for the same (or similar) story get to the front page and others don't rate a mention.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#189

Post by mschuster91 » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:03 AM UTC

Fatnino wrote: post #167

osigurdson wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the real problem is how susceptible houses in US/Canada (maybe elsewhere) are to water leaks of any sort. Drywall, wood, MDF, insulation, etc., are all immediately destroyed with water in a short amount of time. A typical house lasts for 100 years or more and will likely experience many water leaks of various kinds over the course of its lifetime.

Houses last 100 years? They can, but typically after 20 years it starts to make economic sense to scoop the remains of the house into a dump truck and build a fancier house on the now much more expensive land under it. In my neighborhood (admittedly, originally built in the 50s) every single sale I can remember from the last 15 years has resulted it a complete teardown and rebuild bigger. And one of those rebuilds re…

European houses are usually built out of bricks and concrete on proper foundations instead of wood and drywall, which means the substance lasts a lot longer itself and it becomes actually economical to do upgrades like heat insulation, PV energy and the likes. Also, we don't have regular extreme weather events like hurricanes that devastate entire countries (and thus make it uneconomical to build expensive houses).

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#190

Post by 2Gkashmiri » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 8:06 AM UTC

killerpopiller wrote: post #185

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i have been thinking about getting a solar water heater>heat pump>radiator to warm up my home but the costs just dont make sense because of the heat pump. i am told the life expectancy of a good heatpump is like 10 years, that amount divided by only 10 winters it is expected to see is more than what we currently pay for electricity in winters, accepting that we don't currently have whole house heating, (we rely on pe…

that can't be true. In Germany it is quite a trend now, but they are installed for many years. What I can read in the boards is not that discouraging. Where does this 10 year number come from?

https://www.racold.com/heat-pump-water-heaters

>Our heat pump water heater comes with a 2- years warranty and a dependable service for the inner tank.

this is like the premium heat pump contract manufacturer. good brand with a good reputation.

roughly 10 years is what the installer told me. refrigerators in india come with a 5+10 year warranty usually so this 2 year warranty is indicative.