Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland • Hacker News Board

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#91

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 1:40 AM UTC

hahaitsfunny wrote: post #73

_0ffh wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I come from in Europe, things look even more suicidal. Electric power futures for mid-2023 are currently traded at ten-fold the price of electric power one year ago. The end seems uncomfortably nigh.

Yeah, well Europe becoming more dependent on US crude which is 5x more expensive than cheap Russian crude (which more of would have flowed into Europe if Nordstream 2 had been completed) is exactly what the US petroleum companies want. Biden and those who support his administration are using this as an opportunity to push their green energy agenda here in the US, and most of the equipment manufactured for solar comes…

[deleted]

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#92

Post by mulmen » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 1:45 AM UTC

gamegoblin wrote: post #14

pavon wrote: post #8

As an American it completely breaks my expectations that district heating not only works can be more efficient that decentralized heating. The amount of heat lost just moving water from the water heater on one side of the house to the shower on the other is ridiculously high in houses here. The idea that you can insulate well enough to efficiently move heat across a city is amazing to me.

Many American universities use district heating for the whole campus. Also, as made famous by the many steam vents in NYC movie shots: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system . More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating#United_States

The University of Idaho uses district heat. The pipes run under the sidewalks so the waste heat keeps the sidewalks clear in winter.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#93

Post by WalterBright » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 1:48 AM UTC

I've proposed several times on HN a "box of rocks" at the house level to store heat/cold when electricity is cheap, and release heat/cold when electricity is expensive. It was ridiculed every time.

I should have patented it :-)

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#94

Post by bigDinosaur » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 1:49 AM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #61

thematrixturtle wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's factual. The gas supplies in question were not covered by sanctions, but Russia tried to unilaterally switch to being paid in roubles and were told to go batter sand (bada bum tssh).

> gas supplies in question were not covered by sanctions, but Russia tried to unilaterally switch to being paid in roubles I don’t think this is a very honest characterization: Russia demanded payment on their terms only after they were kicked out of SWIFT and their reserves frozen by foreign banks. I don’t think I’d describe that change in payment terms in response to bank sanctions as “unilateral” or unrelated to s…

Russia's invasion of Ukraine was the unilateral issue here, everything else was a response to that. But either way I'd characterise this as a 'payment dispute' because the issue was how Russia wanted to be paid, not that Finland was barred from paying them at all.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#95

Post by WalterBright » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 1:55 AM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #40

konschubert wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. I think that's mostly due to the high upkeep costs of the system, though, the transmission loss is quite manageable, I think. Of course there are arguments to be made that when accounting for the cost of installing a heating system, and the space it…

> As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. So, in America, it is very common for hot water tanks to suddenly fail, leaking water everywhere and causing massive amounts of property damage and even creating health hazards through mold. In a not-insane world, all hot water tanks would come wi…

> in America, it is very common for hot water tanks to suddenly fail, leaking water everywhere and causing massive amounts of property damage and even creating health hazards through mold.

I've had them fail and leak many times. But I had the water heater put in the basement next to a floor drain, and the floor slopes slightly towards the drain. No damage whatsoever from leaks, and it wasn't an emergency to get it fixed, either.

It's stupid simple and cheap to do this, I dunno why I've never seen any other dwelling with such a setup. My house has a number of things like this, making it cheap to maintain.

P.S. I'm an American.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#96

Post by 1123581321 » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 1:59 AM UTC

throwaway742 wrote: post #72

ethagknight wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is wrong on many levels. Hot water heaters should last a lot longer, and when they fail it’s probably a faulty thermostat or short. Still, water heaters get a drain pan to catch leaks. Lastly, installing a leak detectors are trivial and common. Your condo may have been a bad install or not installed to code. America moves hot water just fine. EDIT: yes water heaters can fail. Usually due to bad install,…

One problem is that people never replace their sacrificial anode. Most people don't even know it exists.

They last as long as the expected tank life these days. Tanks with longer life rating use powered rods.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#97

Post by 1123581321 » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 2:02 AM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #40

konschubert wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. I think that's mostly due to the high upkeep costs of the system, though, the transmission loss is quite manageable, I think. Of course there are arguments to be made that when accounting for the cost of installing a heating system, and the space it…

> As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. So, in America, it is very common for hot water tanks to suddenly fail, leaking water everywhere and causing massive amounts of property damage and even creating health hazards through mold. In a not-insane world, all hot water tanks would come wi…

Disagree with all of this. Hot water leaks are very rare. Water heater failure usually manifests as cold showers and a quick replacement unit from a plumber. Drain pan with a hose is a more reliable protection than a sensor. Sensors are much more likely to give annoying false positives than to prevent damage; you can see from Rheem discussion forums that they’re not appreciated.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#98

Post by themitigating » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 2:18 AM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #61

thematrixturtle wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's factual. The gas supplies in question were not covered by sanctions, but Russia tried to unilaterally switch to being paid in roubles and were told to go batter sand (bada bum tssh).

> gas supplies in question were not covered by sanctions, but Russia tried to unilaterally switch to being paid in roubles I don’t think this is a very honest characterization: Russia demanded payment on their terms only after they were kicked out of SWIFT and their reserves frozen by foreign banks. I don’t think I’d describe that change in payment terms in response to bank sanctions as “unilateral” or unrelated to s…

"only after they were kicked out of SWIFT and their reserves frozen by foreign banks."

This is a response to an invasion of another country. Maybe I'm reading your tone wrong but "only after" seems to imply this was unjustified or at the least had no reason behind it.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#99

Post by themitigating » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 2:21 AM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #40

konschubert wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. I think that's mostly due to the high upkeep costs of the system, though, the transmission loss is quite manageable, I think. Of course there are arguments to be made that when accounting for the cost of installing a heating system, and the space it…

> As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. So, in America, it is very common for hot water tanks to suddenly fail, leaking water everywhere and causing massive amounts of property damage and even creating health hazards through mold. In a not-insane world, all hot water tanks would come wi…

You kinda offer a solution by telling us about the annual inspections. There are also water alarms that go in the pan under a water heater for slow leaks.

I've also seen them placed in areas with tile floors and a drain just in case. Sounds like much of the decentralized system damage from water heaters is customer neglect.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#100

Post by themitigating » Thu, Jul 07, 2022, 2:22 AM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #60

pkaye wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they changed the anode rod on the water heater periodically it might last longer. Also the reality is that HVAC and water heater might need periodic inspections.

I was thankful, and shocked, the one year of my life that my HVAC system didn't break down in some fashion. Hot water heaters should have leak detectors on them. They often don't. The higher end models do. Product differentiation strikes again. Last water heater I had, the anode was A-OK, I had it checked about a year prior to the water heater failing. Thermal stress destroys stuff.

Where I'm from mostly installations have a 2 inch deep drip pan which you place a water detector. It emits a very loud noise if the bottom of it gets wet

ex. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Basement-Watchdog-Battery-Operat...

This doesn't help for catastrophic failures but for leaks it should.