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Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

energy-storage.news

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Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#61

Post by zmgsabst »

thematrixturtle wrote: post #55
excitom wrote: post #43

> It has a particularly strong use case in Finland which sees long and very cold winters, and was recently cut off from Russian gas supplies over a payments dispute. Well I guess that's one way to characterize war-related sanctions and their side effects.

It's factual. The gas supplies in question were not covered by sanctions, but Russia tried to unilaterally switch to being paid in roubles and were told to go batter sand (bada bum tssh).

> gas supplies in question were not covered by sanctions, but Russia tried to unilaterally switch to being paid in roubles

I don’t think this is a very honest characterization:

Russia demanded payment on their terms only after they were kicked out of SWIFT and their reserves frozen by foreign banks.

I don’t think I’d describe that change in payment terms in response to bank sanctions as “unilateral” or unrelated to sanctions.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#62

Post by com2kid »

hedora wrote: post #54
com2kid wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a German living in a city with mandatory district heating... the end result is to be that people seem pay more for heating than they would with a decentralised system. So, in America, it is very common for hot water tanks to suddenly fail, leaking water everywhere and causing massive amounts of property damage and even creating health hazards through mold. In a not-insane world, all hot water tanks would come wi…

There’s a cheap ($20?) add on for our water heater that adds a conductivity sensor in the drip pan, and a shutoff valve on the inlet. There’s a slightly more expensive variant from another company that supposedly looks at flow for the whole house, and cuts water off due to slow leaks or burst pipes. I’m shocked that the water heater cutoff valve isn’t required by code. In contrast, plumbed drain lines for water tank…

> There’s a cheap ($20?) add on for our water heater that adds a conductivity sensor in the drip pan, and a shutoff valve on the inlet.

Oh I know, they are awesome. They should come standard, and more people should know about them. It is one of those things I try to bring up in conversations at random, because holy crap the # of people I know who have had water damage from their water heating dramatically failing is too high. Heck it happened to my family twice while I was growing up.

> the plumbed lines don’t actually help with leaks; so they do nothing that a garden hose would not accomplish.

Why not? I've seen places where with a drip pan angled towards a hole connects to a pipe that drains outside.

It should work for slow leaks. Doesn't do anything if the tank bursts of course...

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#63

Post by bathtub365 »

O__________O wrote: post #57
jpollock wrote: post #21

Alberta has a neighborhood that stores heat in the summer for winter use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Landing_Solar_Community

Read the Wikipedia page, might be missing something, but seems like the system works in summer and winter, but don’t see anything about summer production being used in the winter.

From the Wikipedia page:

> The borehole thermal energy system (BTES) is located underground to store large quantities of heat collected in the summer to be used in the winter.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#64

Post by jelly »

zmgsabst wrote: post #61
thematrixturtle wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's factual. The gas supplies in question were not covered by sanctions, but Russia tried to unilaterally switch to being paid in roubles and were told to go batter sand (bada bum tssh).

> gas supplies in question were not covered by sanctions, but Russia tried to unilaterally switch to being paid in roubles I don’t think this is a very honest characterization: Russia demanded payment on their terms only after they were kicked out of SWIFT and their reserves frozen by foreign banks. I don’t think I’d describe that change in payment terms in response to bank sanctions as “unilateral” or unrelated to s…

Gazprombank is still in SWIFT

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#65

Post by rcv »

O__________O wrote: post #57
jpollock wrote: post #21

Alberta has a neighborhood that stores heat in the summer for winter use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Landing_Solar_Community

Read the Wikipedia page, might be missing something, but seems like the system works in summer and winter, but don’t see anything about summer production being used in the winter.

> The borehole thermal energy system (BTES) is located underground to store large quantities of heat collected in the summer to be used in the winter.

Basically they heat up the soil and rock beneath their park during the summer using hot water/glycol from their solar arrays, and then during the winter they pump cold water through it which soaks that heat back up.

What's amazing is that it apparently took 4 years to fully saturate the area with heat energy.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#66

Post by ethagknight »

pavon wrote: post #8

As an American it completely breaks my expectations that district heating not only works can be more efficient that decentralized heating. The amount of heat lost just moving water from the water heater on one side of the house to the shower on the other is ridiculously high in houses here. The idea that you can insulate well enough to efficiently move heat across a city is amazing to me.

For USA, district heating made sense in the coal power era. Today, why burn natural gas at a central plant and then have to manage a complex steam distribution network with associated losses when you can simply distribute natural gas instead and get 98% AFUE at the point of use? Even better is a heat pump with gas backup at point of use. Triumph of technology.

Also, You dont really insulate the steam distribution pipes, you just count the loss bug as a feature “heated roads and sidewalks to melt snow!”

Lastly, district heat doest work in American low density

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#67

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

pavon wrote: post #8

As an American it completely breaks my expectations that district heating not only works can be more efficient that decentralized heating. The amount of heat lost just moving water from the water heater on one side of the house to the shower on the other is ridiculously high in houses here. The idea that you can insulate well enough to efficiently move heat across a city is amazing to me.

Australian here.

The idea that anything can be insulated at all is fucking novel.

New construction has minimum standards these days, but that does nothing for the majority of older house which have single glazed window, iron roofs, and no insulation whatsoever and, if you're renting, lucky to have a heat pump.

And yeah, no insulation on the hot water piping means massive loses from water heater to tap.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#68

Post by FooBarWidget »

ethagknight wrote: post #66
pavon wrote: post #8

As an American it completely breaks my expectations that district heating not only works can be more efficient that decentralized heating. The amount of heat lost just moving water from the water heater on one side of the house to the shower on the other is ridiculously high in houses here. The idea that you can insulate well enough to efficiently move heat across a city is amazing to me.

For USA, district heating made sense in the coal power era. Today, why burn natural gas at a central plant and then have to manage a complex steam distribution network with associated losses when you can simply distribute natural gas instead and get 98% AFUE at the point of use? Even better is a heat pump with gas backup at point of use. Triumph of technology. Also, You dont really insulate the steam distribution pip…

Here in Netherlands, districted heating is considered green because the centralized heat is not generated using coal or gas. Instead the heat comes from burning trash or other industrial waste heat.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#69

Post by hahaitsfunny »

thematrixturtle wrote: post #55
excitom wrote: post #43

> It has a particularly strong use case in Finland which sees long and very cold winters, and was recently cut off from Russian gas supplies over a payments dispute. Well I guess that's one way to characterize war-related sanctions and their side effects.

It's factual. The gas supplies in question were not covered by sanctions, but Russia tried to unilaterally switch to being paid in roubles and were told to go batter sand (bada bum tssh).

No post body was provided.

Re: Large-scale ‘sand battery’ goes online in Finland

#70

Post by _0ffh »

hahaitsfunny wrote: post #69
thematrixturtle wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's factual. The gas supplies in question were not covered by sanctions, but Russia tried to unilaterally switch to being paid in roubles and were told to go batter sand (bada bum tssh).

Quoted post unavailable.

Where I come from in Europe, things look even more suicidal. Electric power futures for mid-2023 are currently traded at ten-fold the price of electric power one year ago. The end seems uncomfortably nigh.
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