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The Swerve

locusmag.com

131–140 of 207 posts

Re: The Swerve

#132
post #16
post #8

Something I read in another comment on HN: "Climate denialists have gone in one smooth move from 'we'll fix it' to 'it's too late to do anything about it anyway'". Which unfortunately rings very true. The really, really big problem is that people seem to think that they personally are going to be exempt from this, that it will happen to others, but not to them. Waking up from that will be pretty harsh. But if COVID d…

Here in the U.S., at least, what has widely been maligned as "COVID denialism" was actually a deeper and more nuanced conversation about whether sudden, sweeping changes to society would prevent more harm than they cause. And now looking at outcomes across different states (e.g. Florida vs. California)--and considering ALL outcomes (public health, homelessness, unemployment, substance abuse, mental health, truancy, g…

> Here in the U.S., at least, what has widely been maligned as "COVID denialism" was actually a deeper and more nuanced conversation about whether sudden, sweeping changes to society would prevent more harm than they cause.

> And now looking at outcomes across different states (e.g. Florida vs. California)--and considering ALL outcomes (public health, homelessness, unemployment, substance abuse, mental health, truancy, graduation rates, violent crime)--it's indeed unclear that draconian policies in the name of public health were a net positive.

Why are we drawing conclusions about the effectiveness of Covid safety protocols based on the failed half-measures taken by America? We have a plethora of working examples to study from the Asia-Pacific region: Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Vietnam and China all eradicated Covid pre-Omicron.

> But there seems to be little introspection from those who propose sweeping policy change about the need to consider second-order effects on those whose lives and livelihoods will be upturned.

Equally, there seems to be little introspection amongst American libertarians about the role their own society’s dysfunction might be playing in shaping their personal beliefs.

Re: The Swerve

#133

It is just me, or is this an open call for a proletariat revolution against the bourgeois? Any successful "plunge past the first-class passengers" will not be a peaceful event.

> Others are just ideologically committed to traveling in a straight line. The swerve is morally bankrupt. It’s communism.

I don’t think he would disagree that many will see it that way.

Re: The Swerve

#134

It is just me, or is this an open call for a proletariat revolution against the bourgeois? Any successful "plunge past the first-class passengers" will not be a peaceful event.

Sounds like the most viable plan to me.

Re: The Swerve

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://reason.com/2017/07/12/cory-doctorows-fully-automated...

It's got "Communist" in the title. For all I know it might not even be about communism in anything other than a metaphorical sense. I'd certainly assume that from the context. Yet someone it feels like you're insinuating that he writes books advocating a communist revolution. That feels dishonest. Maybe it's not but with throwaway comments like this, my hackles rise. Would I be correct in assuming you've not read the…

I mean I was responding to a comment that just said "What?" so I didn't have a lot to go off of.

I am not just getting this from that article. I am stating that he writes books about a post-scarcity society where everyone has their needs met without needing to work, and that this is intended to be a form of communism,

In his book Walkaway, the title of the first chapter is "Communist Party" and it is about a party (the festive kind of party) of self-professed communists who have taken over an abandoned furniture factory to make free furniture for their friends. This is a direct reference to common ownership of the means of production discussed in Marxism.

The party ends in chapter 1, but the themes of communism continue. The book's name "Walkaway" refers to people who walk away from normal capitalist society and enter a wild-west type of region where machines produce everything that people need for survival, and no one has to work.

This is not soviet-style communism, but the concept of communism has taken many forms in theoretical literature, and the general attitude of contemporary communists who aren't 14 years old is that authoritarian communism was and will always be a failure, and that we should look for anarchist forms of communism such as the kind discussed in the late 1800's by Marx's contemporaries like Mikhail Bakunin and Peter Kropotkin.

In Doctorow's book Down and Out In The Magic Kingdom, which is available for free under a creative commons license, again people live their lives without the need to work, because they have taken the means of production in to common ownership. Those that do work do so purely by choice. Everything is run by committees of people instead of being owned by a minority. (It has been a little while since I read that one but I believe that is correct)

Doctorow is an outspoken critic of capitalism and advocates for the kinds of community ownership of the means of production most commonly associated with anarchist communism and Marxist principles.

So no, it was not a throwaway comment, but an honest attempt to answer your question. Yes I have read both books and have regularly read his blog. And yes, if you are familiar with contemporary communist thought there is no doubt about the nature of his work. I am myself a libertarian communist (aka an anarchist communist) and I appreciate his work.

You can read the first chapter of his book Walkaway, the chapter titled "Communist Party" for free here: https://www.tor.com/2017/03/20/excerpts-cory-doctorow-walkaw...

EDIT: Here is Doctorow saying on his own website that the people in the book Walkaway are communists. https://craphound.com/podcast/2019/12/02/party-discipline-a-...

"Party Discipline is a story set in the world of Walkaway, about two high-school seniors who conspire to throw a “Communist Party” at a sheet metal factory whose owners are shutting down and stealing their workers’ final paychecks. These parties are both literally parties — music, dancing, intoxicants — and “Communist” in that the partygoers take over the means of production and start them up, giving away the products they create to the attendees. Walkaway opens with a Communist Party and I wanted to dig into what might go into pulling one of those off."

Re: The Swerve

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that's why you make sure your assumptions and claims match what happened. For instance, anyone who claims that the economic impact was solely the result of government action, and that no private individuals or organizations changed their behavior independently, is ignoring the timeline of events. Anyone who claims that the vaccines didn't change things so that post-vaccine policies could have been equally successf…

> So that's why you make sure your assumptions and claims match what happened. Ah yes, of course. Like everyone in this thread, and every other culture war based thread on HN eh? Everyone is super seriously making sure that their statements are free of error, and signs of uncertainty are far more plentiful than high confidence. > For instance, anyone who claims that the economic impact was solely the result of govern…

I'm not saying I think everyone on HN is doing their homework.

I'm saying that if you want to make sure you're not running yourself in circles and letting your own previous assumptions dominate your ongoing judgment, you should be doing your homework.

If you don't keep doing your homework you will almost certainly fall into that trap.

It wouldn't surprise me if the level of correlation between intelligence and "doing your homework" was near-0, to be honest, but that's just a guess in part based on people's behaviors on HN. ;)

Re: The Swerve

#137
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's got "Communist" in the title. For all I know it might not even be about communism in anything other than a metaphorical sense. I'd certainly assume that from the context. Yet someone it feels like you're insinuating that he writes books advocating a communist revolution. That feels dishonest. Maybe it's not but with throwaway comments like this, my hackles rise. Would I be correct in assuming you've not read the…

It's not even a book by that title, it's an interview of him where the interviewer included the word communism in the title of the interview. I've read the books referred to in the interview and they definitely aren't about communism.

You read the book Walkaway? Where the first chapter is called "Communist Party", where the protagonists of the book take over a furniture factory to produce free furniture for their friends, then go off to live in a world where machines provide for everyone and no one is required to work for their survival?

Are you familiar with the Marxist concept of "worker ownership of the means of production?" That is what they are alluding to both in the first chapter and in the rest of the book. The people in the first chapter regularly refer to themselves as communists. That is why they call their party a communist party. And they have taken over a factory to produce free goods for their friends. That is a very communist thing to do!

Perhaps you have confused anarchist communism, which is described in his books, with the authoritarian communism common in the 20th century, which is not described in his books.

But he writes extensively about worlds where the means of production are held in common ownership to produce enough for everyone, so no one has to work if they don't want to. These have always been the ideals of communism.

EDIT: Here is Doctorow saying on his own website that the people in the book Walkaway are communists. https://craphound.com/podcast/2019/12/02/party-discipline-a-...

"Party Discipline is a story set in the world of Walkaway, about two high-school seniors who conspire to throw a “Communist Party” at a sheet metal factory whose owners are shutting down and stealing their workers’ final paychecks. These parties are both literally parties — music, dancing, intoxicants — and “Communist” in that the partygoers take over the means of production and start them up, giving away the products they create to the attendees. Walkaway opens with a Communist Party and I wanted to dig into what might go into pulling one of those off."

Re: The Swerve

#138
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> can get hold of the wheel Only if you insist on legal means of doing so.

Getting thrown in jail doesn't seem like a useful path towards accomplishing anything.

Yep, so you need enough people participating to ensure that doesn't happen. That's the point at which a riot becomes a revolution.

Re: The Swerve

#139
post #27

I like Cory, and I think he's right. But he's preaching to the choir. No one who can get hold of the wheel is listening.

Preaching to the choir pays his rent. The other options are sucking oligarchs, amusing children, selling off your body parts, living in a cardboard box and the vast frontier of crime.

The only thing stopping me being a very successful criminal since the world went to shit and leaders started getting away with heinous obvious shit is the thought that my parents would be very disappointed.

if we are doomed anyway I might as well have my time on a yacht too.

Re: The Swerve

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are only a few countries that really shut down (some only regional): New Zealand, Japan, Australia and China (others?). This one graph shows how effective it was and if we'd all done that the difference would be enormous, even for the countries that did shut down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_by_country_a...

Without a really deep dive I'm not certain the island-country numbers of Australia or Japan would be achievable in the US, but if I use Canada as a "certainly achievable standin" I would state my position as "unconvinced that the marginal benefits of additional restrictions initially + for longer would be worth it" but also "entirely convinced that if the US hadn't taken the steps it did, both individually and govern…

> Without a really deep dive I'm not certain the island-country numbers of Australia or Japan would be achievable in the US

If “being an island nation” was all it took to eradicate Covid, why was Hawaii unable to do so?

It’s clear border security was a rather important factor. And can you think of a more essential responsibility of government than securing the borders?

Gentle reminder that Australia is an “island country” the size of the continental US with several densely-populated major cities.

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