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PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat

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Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat

#81
post #69
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People dislike his work for various reasons but are still forced to use it thanks, in part, to his employer promoting it aggressively (it's not like he did all this for free). That's a recipe for saltiness. Kinda like Bill Gates back in the day (remember that "Kill Bill" game, and other similar ones?)

No one is forced to use it - you can always switch distro. I also use hyperbole as a rhetoric instrument but in text seldom works.

At work you may not have that choice, especially since all the most-used (so, best supported) distros are deep into systemd now, or if you have a distro that you otherwise like but that has switched to systemd. It's possible to prefer something over alternatives but still think it's worse than it used to be, or could be better, or to very much dislike one part of it.

Again, much like Windows and other MS products. People effectively had to use them ("well technically they could quit their jobs instead, so they didn't really have to"—LOL), which sets up circumstances for some serious hate. To repeat what I've written elsewhere, no-one is upset with any other init system or audio daemon creators, even if they don't like the software. Something different happened with these projects.

Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat

#82
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because he wrote (free & gratis!) software they don't like I don't think you understand what the story was.

That's the story; he proposed new software and his employer liked the idea and paid him to develop that idea. End of story. People getting mad because they are "forced" to use a free software system? That's the fan-fiction from the peanut gallery.

So why's no-one mad at any other init or audio daemon authors? Poettering just had bad luck?

Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat

#83
post #41
post #21

My god the comments in this thread are terrible. How can grown ass adults be so pathetically mean to a single person because he wrote (free & gratis!) software they don't like. Seriously, it's mystifying.

I agree that the comments in this thread are uselessly snarky and uncivil, but Lennart Poettering is not just a single person who wrote software people don't like. PulseAudio has, deservedly or otherwise, been the face of audio issues in desktop Linux for coming on two decades now, and the tumultuous changeover to systemd as very nearly the mandatory init system for Linux left a sour taste for many long-time users.

> PulseAudio has, deservedly or otherwise, been the face of audio issues in desktop Linux for coming on two decades now

It is actually very hard to say in reality whether some other product would have been better.

The more users software has, more issues there will be. If there is ”de facto” way to play audio, all conversation focues on this ”de facto” way. It has been also kinda first of its kind in this scale. PipeWire might work well now, but they had excellent example what to not do or how to do otherwise.

Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat

#84
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don't use it. No one is forcing you, there exist alternatives. Attacking someone for making an optional thing seems kinda like the problem lies in you.

you are kidding, right? It is like saying you can't critique US laws because you can move to Canada (technically true but it misses the point)

Overract much? It's not at all like that. First and foremost because using a different distro doesn't come with all sorts of application process to use the new one.

Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using linux for decades and by far -- by a HUGE margin -- PulseAudio has been the most annoying and broken thing I had to use. I'm still baffled by how something as basic as audio output can be eternally fragile in linux! And before you say you might have quirky hardware: my daily laptop is a Lenovo X1 Carbon 7th gen. Now (since 2021) I use PipeWire and tbh do not know to what extent pulseaudio codebase is…

I'm also using and happy with Pipewire but I can't remember the last time I had a PulseAudio issue, across many systems. My recollections of Linux audio issues are more from the days when one thing might want to use OSS and another ALSA and you might have to fiddle around and enable software mixing in some ALSA configuration files to get non-exclusive sound to work. And then some issues right around when Pulse first…

Yeah, same; I can't help but think there is a vocal minority in these threads that thinks Pulse is broken.

I use Pulse for some pretty complicated stuff, too; I'll pipe individual streams to my speakers, if I want to show something to my SO (e.g., a reddit video) but want to keep, like, my music or my backgrounded game on the headset. I can do that with PA, and honestly pretty easily. AFAIK, no other system supports that, though admittedly I haven't used Windows in some time.

Far more complicated, I also have TTS bot I use in Discord sometimes, when I can't speak. PA allows me to push that into Discord; this is another thing I don't even begin to know how to set up on other systems. (The bot emits sound, so it's like a program playing sound, not a recording device. Discord thus doesn't recognize it as such. So I end up creating a fake input device, of sorts, and wiring the bot's output to that fake output (so it goes to Discord) but also to my own headset, so I can also hear the bot, as the TTS is far from perfect and will sometimes just make hilarious garbage of words.)

I also use Bluetooth, and that usually works. It certainly works more reliably with PA on Linux than it does w/ macOS, though it is my no means flawless. But that seems to be how bluetooth is: it sucks on every OS. There will be days it won't connect to Linux, and there will be days it won't connect to macOS.

I will say that Pipewire looks like it more solidly hits the nail: the thing I don't like is that PA doesn't really model audio as a graph of nodes. (PA's model is equivalent to a graph of nodes, but that it isn't just a graph of nodes makes it a lot harder to deal with and intuit.) For that reason I'm excited about Pipewire; I need to try it one of these days. PA would also be served by a better API; it is difficult to script against.

Also, systemd units are hands-down a more solidly engineered thing than the mess of shell scripts they replaced. I will take systemd+journald any. day. of. the. week. People that … want shell back — I honestly can't comprehend this. I've literally not had to deal for years now with a service wedging itself in because some daemon orphaned itself somehow between some unreliable mess of shell, pidfiles, and other hacks. Is systemd/journald perfect? No, I've spent time fighting it too. But it's a lot more productive than what came before, and the design is engineered to solve the problem at hand… which the shell mess was not.

Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The combination of unbridled arrogance along with the dubious technical merits of your all-or-nothing design decisions, can lead to that; so, hardly mystifying. Why does systemd need to mess with user processes and home directories? It was billed as a replacement for init.

systemd-homed is not systemd.

This whole Lennart Poettering thing of naming and bundling otherwise completely independent pieces of software "systemd-${thing}" even when they are at best just sightly related to "things you might want managed for you in your computer" doesn't make a lot of sense, and doesn't help in his defense that "systemd is supposed to be modular".

My guess is that if PulseAudio had came later, it would be called "systemd-audio" or something like that.

Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat

#87
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be worth pondering what Poettering and Red Hat did that make people hate their work so much, and to make Poettering uniquely infamous in the open source world. No-one's upset with the creators of dozens of other init systems and audio daemons, including ones that are pretty bad, and even ones that were promoted by major distro vendors.

From my point of view as an old guy who remembers the hell of init scripts, what they did was make an alternative to remembering arcane details of how each os and distro chose to set up their scripts. This: * made debugging a random system a lot more straight forward * made putting up software for packaging a lot easier * made customizing the start-up of a daemon a lot easier (this ties in with the first point) * mad…

These "simple" use cases break when you need to do anything even slightly more complex than whatever the systemD designers envisioned for the user. And if you try to submit an issue upstream, the typical response is "you're holding it wrong" or equivalent. This lack of a consistent design might be excusable when first trying to support a bunch of entirely novel use cases, but let's not pretend that it doesn't come with serious drawbacks.

Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat

#88
post #37

Interested to see what he chooses to work on now

Judging from the email in the article, systemd is still his main priority (which makes sense). With system-homed/etc he's been trying out some pretty interesting new ideas, so I wonder if RedHat has just been a too conservative for him now that systemd's off the ground and embed into distros.

There was always a mixed ecosystem. At one point, we were using Chef, Ansible, Puppet, AND Salt both internally and in shipping projects.

systemd-homed, systemd-nspawn as isolation, and the rest of his ideas aren't being held back because they're controversial, it's because OStree/Atomic "lost" more or less the instant Red Hat purchased CoreOS and they didn't need to build their own de-novo k8s compute distro (parts of OStree lived on in CoreOS and are there as a testbed for immutable images for trusted computing in kiosks/appliances/VDI).

systemd-homed, using systemd-nspawn for management, and the rest go directly against the investments which have been made in [fedora-]toolbox, rootless podman, and flatpak. At the time that I left (~2 years ago), "Openshift is the new platform" was the phrase of the day, which means podman "won".

Red Hat/IBM (via the container toolkit, rootless podman, etc) is/was primarily invested in a growth sector, which desktop/server Linux is/was not, and the Container Development Kit, rootless podman, and the rest are direct mechanisms to get containers sold on k8s and openshift.

Lennart's passion projects are great for Linux, and maybe better ideas than Flatpak and Snap. They don't have a business case inside Redhat, though, and there's only so long that even a principal consulting engineer can essentially spend his time on research projects.

I would guess that he wanted to put more effort into an overhaul of CoreOS/OSTree and try to "unify" it with flatpak somehow to get back to "one Linux" instead of split distros for different cases, didn't get traction, and decided to go somewhere he could work on a passion project.

Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat

#89
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How can grown ass adults be so pathetically mean to a single person because he wrote (free & gratis!) software they don't like. Seriously, it's mystifying. Because he and his orbiters were extraordinarily arrogant and condescending about their software. And let's not forget that while it's pretty good now, in the early days systemd was not very good at all. Because things like GNOME 3 decided to make systemd a hard…

But it's not Poettering, it's the Gnome folks in general. These controversies have been around since the early Gnome 2.x days. Nothing much has changed. What we really need is for people to propose alternatives to systemD that address its purported use cases while removing some of the needless complexity it introduces, and restoring the primacy of general mechanisms over hacked-together policy. This has happened with…

>But it's not Poettering, it's the Gnome folks in general.

It might also be the Gnome folks but it's definitely also Poettering. Let's not pretend he's some blameless martyr. The guy's a jerk.

Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat

#90
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using linux for decades and by far -- by a HUGE margin -- PulseAudio has been the most annoying and broken thing I had to use. I'm still baffled by how something as basic as audio output can be eternally fragile in linux! And before you say you might have quirky hardware: my daily laptop is a Lenovo X1 Carbon 7th gen. Now (since 2021) I use PipeWire and tbh do not know to what extent pulseaudio codebase is…

> I'm still baffled by how something as basic as audio output can be eternally fragile in linux Yeah, broken drivers. You see, before pulseaudio came along, audio drivers were barely used and needed to be tuned for each use case. Most drivers barely implemented ALSA, almost none correctly. If you wanted fancy features (say; software input mixing, so that more than just one application can actually output sound) you n…

Enabling software audio mixing with ALSA required copying and pasting a small handful of lines into your ALSA config file and just worked. Most of PulseAudio's hardware problems were caused by it having weird and unnecessary expectations, like wanting to know the exact sample being played by the hardware or expecting analog volume controls to have perfectly accurate gain and glitch-free volume changes.

PulseAudio also had pretty awful code quality in general. For example, I ran into a crash where the resampling code was trampling past the end of the buffer and it turned out that every stage of the audio conversion process - resampling, channel conversion, and so on - made assumptions about where it was in the process and what sample rate, buffer size, channel count etc it should have on its input and output based on members of a shared struct that were used by multiple stages in different ways. At some point the developers had accepted a patch which changed this order without fixing half the resamplers - and which said it was incomplete in the commit message - and this had somehow made it into the release I was using. One of the unfixed resamplers was the one used for VU meters in mixer apps, because that was implemented as a resampler for some reason. Also, all of this code had basically zero comments. Oh, and reverting the patch didn't even fix the crashes for me so presumably there was some other problem somewhere. Oh, and on top of that there were no stable bugfix-only releases of PulseAudio, so even if it did get fixed upstream it'd come with a bunch of new non-bugfix changes with the same level of quality and scrutiny.

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