My god the comments in this thread are terrible. How can grown ass adults be so pathetically mean to a single person because he wrote (free & gratis!) software they don't like. Seriously, it's mystifying.
The combination of unbridled arrogance along with the dubious technical merits of your all-or-nothing design decisions, can lead to that; so, hardly mystifying. Why does systemd need to mess with user processes and home directories? It was billed as a replacement for init.
PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat
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Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat
#72My god the comments in this thread are terrible. How can grown ass adults be so pathetically mean to a single person because he wrote (free & gratis!) software they don't like. Seriously, it's mystifying.
> because he wrote (free & gratis!) software they don't like I don't think you understand what the story was.
End of story.
People getting mad because they are "forced" to use a free software system? That's the fan-fiction from the peanut gallery.
Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then don't use it. No one is forcing you, there exist alternatives. Attacking someone for making an optional thing seems kinda like the problem lies in you.
Might be worth pondering what Poettering and Red Hat did that make people hate their work so much, and to make Poettering uniquely infamous in the open source world. No-one's upset with the creators of dozens of other init systems and audio daemons, including ones that are pretty bad, and even ones that were promoted by major distro vendors.
* made debugging a random system a lot more straight forward
* made putting up software for packaging a lot easier
* made customizing the start-up of a daemon a lot easier (this ties in with the first point)
* made it so I didn't have to go to the guru who's only job seemed to be managing our obtuse set of init scripts that were extra baroque because order of startup really mattered.
That guy I had to go to - he was an asshole an lorded his knowledge of arcana over anyone who brought him a question. I'm 90% sure he made it intentionally complex since he didn't have much skill beyond memorizing those silly facts (this is the same guy who got an entire project reassigned to me because he couldn't understand the concept of functions when I removed some extreme repetition from a python script he wrote). Most of the systemd haters remind me of this guy.
I guess what you're implying is that he helped automate away dead weight and that made the leeches mad?
Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat
#74Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm still baffled by how something as basic as audio output can be eternally fragile in linux Yeah, broken drivers. You see, before pulseaudio came along, audio drivers were barely used and needed to be tuned for each use case. Most drivers barely implemented ALSA, almost none correctly. If you wanted fancy features (say; software input mixing, so that more than just one application can actually output sound) you n…
Driver issues, right.. is that why my archived shell histories have hundreds if not thousands of entries for `pulseaudio --kill ; puslseaudio --start` ? Does restarting the userland sound daemon reset the drivers operating in kernel space? How would that work?
Linux might be a monolithic kernel, but it's not like the entire kernel with all it's features/modules need to be loaded all at once.
Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat
#76Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat
#77My god the comments in this thread are terrible. How can grown ass adults be so pathetically mean to a single person because he wrote (free & gratis!) software they don't like. Seriously, it's mystifying.
When his employer uses politics to try to coerce others into using that "free & gratis" software it can leave a bit of a bitter taste in your mouth. It's not that something like pulseaudio is bad so we can just ignore it, it's that pulseaudio is bad because because redhat funds a lot of gnome stuff gnome won't really work unless you use pulseaudio, and since you use gnome you now have to use systemd. If pulseaudio ju…
This is, fundamentally, a gross misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the way that open source works in general, and of the way Red Hat-employed developers in particular interacted with the ecosystem.
I was in the engineering side in various positions for nearly a decade. The policy was upstream first. Open source first. If you think that the engineers at Red Hat didn't care about open source, or that anyone WANTED to invest god knows how many man hours into trying to create a sane experience from scratch, you're badly mistaken.
Pulse was optional in gnome-settings-dameon for a long time, and the primary reason it's deeply integrated now is because people LIKED IT (the horror!), since it finally solved a bunch of problems with Linux audio, and the dbus backend made stuff like "media keys work out of the box" seamless.
Similarly, GNOME has a dominant place in the market because... people liked it. It's market competition. GNOME had/has a place in Red Hat as the de-facto user experience for Fedora, and Fedora's principal role is user experience testing/feedback for the next version of RHEL, at all levels of the system, but the number of users who are gonna run Fedora without a shell is low.
Principally, a lot of Red Hat's engineers ran (and probably run) Fedora as a development workstation, though there was a fair amount of Gentoo, Arch, Slack, and others.
The only reason why there's a perception that "non-Red Hat stakeholders didn't matter" is because the vast majority of community users weren't submitting patches, and the other big vendors (SuSE, Canonical) were working on other DEs (KDE, Unity) which only shared parts. EndlessOS and other projects were GNOME because... it worked.
Pulse and systemd came into being because better solutions did not, despite a bunch of effort. I've used Linux since the 90s. ALSA was better than OSS, but it had enough thorny edges that JACK still had to be a thing (and still is, for audio engineering). Pipewire is an iterative improvement on Pulse. Audio will never be done.
OpenRC, Upstart, sysvinit, runit, and others were all terrible in various ways. The sheer existence of stuff like supervisord speaks to the existence of that. If I'm going to bet, it's always safe that whatever "booo systemd" person I'm speaking with has never actually had to maintain, troubleshoot, add features to, or otherwise work with pre-systemd init systems in any meaningful way.
Red Hat's business is consulting (or at least that's what "platform" is, discounting OpenShift, but "platform" had been stagnant in revenue for a bit, which precipitated the buyout). It is not selling Linux. It is getting paid to help companies make Linux work for them so they can save money in other places.
It is in writing features which make Linux better because some customer needs/wants it and has a bag of money, but not the in-house expertise to write it.
It is not desktop Linux, and it hasn't been since RHEL3 (or maybe before that). Any argument predicated on that is built on quicksand. Don't make a Texas sharpshooter fallacy.
You have (had) a bunch of very smart people who were very passionate about open source working in Linux every day, at a company with an "upstream-first" policy. They were actively working with/against desktop Linux user experience at airports, at home, on newer laptops, trying to get on Bluejeans calls, etc. It should not be surprising that they also saw problems and wrote solutions, which the gratis marketplace liked enough that they have widespread adoption.
You can personally dislike those technologies, but condemning their existence is just a different way of saying "I don't like open source when ideas I don't like succeed".
Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
Have never used those APIs, but I would assume it'd happen if drivers fail to implement basic API promises and PulseAudio doesn't code defensively against those kind of bugs.
If drivers fail that disastrously to implement the APIs they say they implement, how did they end up in distributors' kernel trees?
Re: PulseAudio and Systemd Creator, Lennart Poettering, Reportedly Leaves Red Hat
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've been using linux for decades and by far -- by a HUGE margin -- PulseAudio has been the most annoying and broken thing I had to use. I'm still baffled by how something as basic as audio output can be eternally fragile in linux! And before you say you might have quirky hardware: my daily laptop is a Lenovo X1 Carbon 7th gen. Now (since 2021) I use PipeWire and tbh do not know to what extent pulseaudio codebase is…
> I'm still baffled by how something as basic as audio output can be eternally fragile in linux Yeah, broken drivers. You see, before pulseaudio came along, audio drivers were barely used and needed to be tuned for each use case. Most drivers barely implemented ALSA, almost none correctly. If you wanted fancy features (say; software input mixing, so that more than just one application can actually output sound) you n…