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“But The Client Wants IE 6 Support”

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Re: “But The Client Wants IE 6 Support”

#91

Post by FuzzyDunlop »

gte910h wrote: post #87
FuzzyDunlop wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It surprises me that this has to be highlighted. I wouldn't genuinely know if it's a difference between British and American English but I've never encountered a British trend of using gender specific pronouns - or the unilateral usage of feminine pronouns in favour of masculine ones - in place of the neutral forms. It is one of those niggles that irks my pedantic self though; particularly the politically correct cha…

Does the singular You bother you? Dost thou pine for Thou?

I'm not sure what relevance that has to my dislike of unnecessarily gender specific pronouns.

Re: “But The Client Wants IE 6 Support”

#92

Post by shinratdr »

moreorless wrote: post #52

Isn't this just like about anything else? There are still plenty of people who use VCR's. There is still good money to make for people who are willing to support older technology. If you don't do it, someone else will.

Except we stopped making new standalone VCRs years ago, and new movies haven't been published on tape for years as well.

The interesting part of the IE6 debacle isn't the fact that a legacy program is sticking around longer than we had hoped, it's how ridiculously strong the longevity of it is. Most likely IE6 marketshare will stay in the double digits in many countries long after the world has completely forgotten about VCRs.

Re: “But The Client Wants IE 6 Support”

#93

Post by dasil003 »

elektronaut wrote: post #57
TamDenholm wrote: post #6

I'm a web developer, whenever a client asks me about IE6 support, i enthusiastically tell them i'll happily support it. I then show them usage statistics for IE6 and tell them IE6 support costs a flat fee of £10,000 and let them think about it. No client has ever taken very long to decide its not worth it and none have ever taken me up on it, although i'm sure 1 or 2 have asked a different developer to make them an I…

I haven't had a request for IE6 support in years, but if I got one I would say something like: "No, I will not do IE6 support for you. You've trusted me to solve your problem in the best and most efficient way, and supporting IE6 would be a waste of your money (and my time)."

The problem is this is piss poor client relations. When you make a declaration like this you seem arrogant. Effectively you are saying that your knowledge of web development trumps any concerns they may have to the point that you don't even need to know about it.

Instead you have to take the time to understand why they are requesting it and then communicate the tradeoffs to them at the appropriate technical level for their expertise.

Re: “But The Client Wants IE 6 Support”

#94

Post by redthrowaway »

mattmanser wrote: post #26
jswinghammer wrote: post #13

I usually take a much different approach with this issue. I had to support IE 6 for years after anyone could reasonably have been asked to do that. I did it because our customers used it a lot and asking them to upgrade wasn't in the cards for us. We could have lost 30% of our business or just not do all the cool things we wanted to do. I realize it's not cool but we chose to just not do all those things. IE 6 does s…

IE7 only came out 5 years ago, IE8 2 years ago. Making sure IE6 was supported was still commonplace even last year. You're not as unique a snowflake as you think you are, we've all been having to do it. It's only becoming viable now to suggest otherwise.

"You're not as unique a snowflake as you think you are"

That's unnecessary. The point, without the invective, please.

Re: “But The Client Wants IE 6 Support”

#95

Post by idiopathic »

elektronaut wrote: post #57
TamDenholm wrote: post #6

I'm a web developer, whenever a client asks me about IE6 support, i enthusiastically tell them i'll happily support it. I then show them usage statistics for IE6 and tell them IE6 support costs a flat fee of £10,000 and let them think about it. No client has ever taken very long to decide its not worth it and none have ever taken me up on it, although i'm sure 1 or 2 have asked a different developer to make them an I…

I haven't had a request for IE6 support in years, but if I got one I would say something like: "No, I will not do IE6 support for you. You've trusted me to solve your problem in the best and most efficient way, and supporting IE6 would be a waste of your money (and my time)."

Let me tell you about the UK National Health Service. 1 million employees, they are literally saving people's lives every day, and all they are allowed to use is IE6.

What your statement shows is not a understanding of how to solve the problem for such a client, but a rather a complete lack of understanding. Check the audience metrics, check the real problem being solved, and leave the grandstanding aside.

And for the record, I hate IE (6 or otherwise) and never want to support it. But I am not going let me personal dislike for a technology get in the way of helping a client solve a really important problem.

Re: “But The Client Wants IE 6 Support”

#96

Post by jiggy2011 »

WayneDB wrote: post #15

"We have a responsibility to ourselves and to the Web to follow the principle of universality." Not feeling that at all, so speak for yourself. If I want to target a specific browser or device, I do it when it makes sense. Screw universality. The users install what I tell them to or they don't get the privilege of using my site or product. (Do you think Steve Jobs would disagree?)

I would think so, if you are talking about websites at least rather than an entire computing platform.

The entire point of a website at it's core is to send and display pages of information, this isn't really a problem that should require specific versions of special software to solve.

With the exception of requiring quicktime for the videos the apple website has always rendered fine for me on pretty much any browser I have viewed it with.

Re: “But The Client Wants IE 6 Support”

#97

Post by jiggy2011 »

jdavid wrote: post #76
jdavid wrote: post #75

Who are these clients and why are you not firing them? You run a business, they run a business, and everyone is trying to make money. How much money do you think an IE6 user has? the browser is like a decade old. It's why we target iPhone and not Android in the mobile world. ( because iPhone users out spend android users. ) Tell your client the truth, tell them that you keep up to date on the latest trends and if the…

when i was running the site http://unity3d.com less than 1% of our visitors could not properly render an html5 doctype.

Question is, what % of users have the unity plugin installed?

I think it's quite neat that unity let's you embed your game into a web page but I often wonder how many users change their minds once posed with the requirement of a plugin install since this is exactly the kind of thing that IT savvy people advise their less technical friends not to do!

Re: “But The Client Wants IE 6 Support”

#98

Post by gbog »

tomgallard wrote: post #33
mattmanser wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me that's lying to them. While supporting IE6 is onerous extra work, it's still work that can be done and has little impact on the final product. Take the other position, that 'Not supporting IE6 will mean I'll charge you 70% of my original quote, only x% of people use it in your target market' or better add it as an extra in the quote in the first place as the article suggests. Then it's up to them, it's a risk a…

I think the article is realistic in terms of IE6 support costs if you're not just building a simple website. Trying to build a responsive, dynamic webapp, that is identical in IE6 to a modern browser can easily add a lot of time. Just as an example, producing all the graphics for rounded corners, rather than being able to do them in CSS.

Rounded corners are already out fashioned. If a client want IE6 support I take it as a good challenge, and do something nice under this heavy constraint. I'll tell them upfront that they won't have cheap drag and drop and that new stuff.

Re: “But The Client Wants IE 6 Support”

#99

Post by jiggy2011 »

jdavid wrote: post #75

Who are these clients and why are you not firing them? You run a business, they run a business, and everyone is trying to make money. How much money do you think an IE6 user has? the browser is like a decade old. It's why we target iPhone and not Android in the mobile world. ( because iPhone users out spend android users. ) Tell your client the truth, tell them that you keep up to date on the latest trends and if the…

Not sure I quite agree here. I know somebody who runs a financial website and IE6 visitors accounted for ~20% of their visitors but had a significantly higher conversion rate for IE6 users than others (no idea why).

#1 & 2 , Microsoft provide a free VM image of windows XP SP2 + IE6 specifically for IE6 testing. It's timebombed though so you do have to occasionally download a new one.

http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?displaylan...

#4 Sometimes work isn't fun, if your in the business to make some money you've got to deal with that now and again.

It's your "duty" to build something that fits the clients requirements relative to the amount they pay you for it unless that involves something illegal or unethical and supporting IE6 is neither.

Re: “But The Client Wants IE 6 Support”

#100

Post by lwat »

idiopathic wrote: post #95
elektronaut wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't had a request for IE6 support in years, but if I got one I would say something like: "No, I will not do IE6 support for you. You've trusted me to solve your problem in the best and most efficient way, and supporting IE6 would be a waste of your money (and my time)."

Let me tell you about the UK National Health Service. 1 million employees, they are literally saving people's lives every day, and all they are allowed to use is IE6. What your statement shows is not a understanding of how to solve the problem for such a client, but a rather a complete lack of understanding. Check the audience metrics, check the real problem being solved, and leave the grandstanding aside. And for th…

I'm so glad I've never had a client like that here in Australia. Everyone seems to be OK with the idea of running multiple browsers. We do have clients that use IE6 but we've always managed to convince them to install Chrome or Firefox on their desktops so they can use our software. Some users end up using multiple browsers but that's ok.

I guess we're fortunate in the sense that our software is important enough and expensive enough for top management to make IT allow a new browser just for us.

At the UK NHS, who exactly is the CIO, who exactly is mandating IE6 and only IE6? Can't that person be reasoned with? Overridden for the good of the NSH? Fired even? Just saying 'oh they're only allowed IE6' is giving up too early.

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