Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#81

Post by ncmncm » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

shiftpgdn wrote: post #68

ncmncm wrote: post #2

??? I thought that was what it was for. Or maybe for making wacky collision vids on YouTube? Tesla just closed their whole self-driving office in San Mateo, and fired ("for poor performance") most of the staff, directing some to come to work across the bay. For now. People still employed on that activity would best update their résumés. People who paid for self-driving already? I would ask for a refund, in your shoes…

That’s a misleading headline. Tesla let go of their labeling team because they weren’t needed anymore.

...

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#82

Post by ra7 » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

Dang — can we replace ‘Autopilot’ with ‘FSD Beta’ in the title? It’s an important distinction as they do different things.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#83

Post by kadoban » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

throwaway5959 wrote: post #27

Why is the US allowing this beta testing of a feature that impacts safety to continue? There have to be at least dozens of documented cases of this being unsafe. Have regulators just given up or are they that incompetent?

Part of it is that government regulation of new things is slow. Part of it is that Congress is barely functional, at best. Part of it is that Republicans are anti- the government doing anything useful.

California has been making some noises about cracking down on this, there was a story on HN a few weeks back. My sense is that some people will need to die in a sensational way, that happens to go viral, before anything really goes anywhere.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#84

Post by skywhopper » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:24 PM UTC

throwaway5959 wrote: post #27

Why is the US allowing this beta testing of a feature that impacts safety to continue? There have to be at least dozens of documented cases of this being unsafe. Have regulators just given up or are they that incompetent?

From my perspective in the US, the NHTSA which investigates crashes, regulates automobile safety, and handles recalls, etc, seems highly competent regarding general auto safety and investigating issues.

But politicians and the press by and large were drinking the self-driving Kool-Aid for the last 10 years, and so there’s some level of political risk for the NHTSA to clamp down hard on something politicians have bought into without some level of popular outrage to back them up. So I think not exactly “given up” but more “afraid to poke the hornets’ nest”.

Although as self-driving proves more and more to be a dud/fraud, I hope that changes. I’ve been surprised they didn’t take a stronger stance on it after the spate of crashes into emergency vehicles on shoulder, but they may have been (perhaps rightly) afraid blowback from Trump would gut their powers entirely.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#85

Post by BurningFrog » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:24 PM UTC

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #67

mancerayder wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm asking the question of how common it is. If I understand you correctly, self-driving should be banned if there's 1 error?

We actually do that with many industries where such errors result in loss of human life. Entire plane fleets being grounded and things like that.

"Something like this is already being done" is not much of an argument. People do a lot of stupid things.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#86

Post by sva_ » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:25 PM UTC

rvz wrote: post #12

This contraption is literally a disaster on wheels. Malfunctions on the public roads and essentially puts the driver and others on the road at risk. It's other counterpart FSD, 'Fools Self Driving' is even worse and is already being investigated. There is zero point in defending the incompleteness of this so-called 'safety-critical' contraption. It simply does not work and is simply not ready.

It's a bit sad to imagine that Tesla's - perhaps to be considered reckless - release of their alpha/beta software on public roads could lead to legislation making it a lot harder for future companies trying to develop self-driving cars. So maybe Musk's pioneering work in this will actually set the field back in some way.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#87

Post by skywhopper » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:25 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #71

throwaway5959 wrote: post #27

Why is the US allowing this beta testing of a feature that impacts safety to continue? There have to be at least dozens of documented cases of this being unsafe. Have regulators just given up or are they that incompetent?

> There have to be at least dozens of documented cases of this being unsafe. The human in the loop seems to catch the mistake just fine? Doesn't seem to be even remotely close to an accident?

Did you miss the ones where the self-driving Teslas plowed into fire trucks on the side of the road?

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#88

Post by mensetmanusman » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:26 PM UTC

ohgodplsno wrote: post #58

mancerayder wrote: post #43

The comments are a pile-on of criticism and how can this be legal. The question is what percentage of self driving hours lead to a situation like this, is it high enough to determine it's unsafe compared to non autopilot or statistically an outlier?

It doesn't matter how statistically safe it is. Putting unreliable software like that in the streets causes more crashes than drivers. The sudden swervings, the phantom braking, the absolutely batshit insane behavior and the frankly dangerous "lidar is for scrubs we're only going to use cameras" behaviour and Tesla having autopilot turn off ever so slightly before a crash so that their logs can say that it wasn't on…

It does matter how statistically safe it is.

It’s possible for it to be not 100% reliable and still safer than many drivers who seem to be on their phone much of the time where I live.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#89

Post by jaxn » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:27 PM UTC

MarkMarine wrote: post #14

ncmncm wrote: post #2

??? I thought that was what it was for. Or maybe for making wacky collision vids on YouTube? Tesla just closed their whole self-driving office in San Mateo, and fired ("for poor performance") most of the staff, directing some to come to work across the bay. For now. People still employed on that activity would best update their résumés. People who paid for self-driving already? I would ask for a refund, in your shoes…

I can’t imagine there is a way to get a refund, but if I could I would. 10k on something they won’t even let me beta test because where I live triggers incorrect forward collision warnings too frequently for my driving to be considered good enough. I was skeptical but paid up front, and I’m pretty sure I got taken

You need to set your forward collision warnings to 'early'. The safety score ding happens at medium. If you have it set to 'late', you will get dinged and never even know it until later.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#90

Post by tenuousemphasis » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:27 PM UTC

petilon wrote: post #77

Meanwhile Cruise just obtained permission to charge passengers for driverless rides in San Francisco [1]. Cruise has been cleared to charge for rides in vehicles that will have no other people in them besides the passengers. There will be no back-up human driver present to take control if something goes wrong. Why is Tesla so far behind? Tesla is generating these autopilot mishap news on such a regular basis that it…

The answer is that Tesla is creating a general solution, whereas Waymo and Cruise and targeting specific geographical areas which they can map precisely.