Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#311

Post by idle_zealot » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 12:46 AM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #156

xpe wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the commenter is not saying that. And you probably know that? The context is right there in the comment: > It sounds like you were successfully sheltered from secular and liberal ideas by traditional and conservative parents It is better to read the whole comment in context and reply charitably. See HN guidelines.

That comment blatantly implies that secularl and liberal ideas are incompatible with valuing tradition, morality and spirituality. It makes unquantified assumptions about how the person was raised and their life experiences. There's nothing charitable about it at all.

> blatantly implies that secularl and liberal ideas are incompatible with valuing tradition, morality and spirituality

Yes, that is what I was implying. Now I will state it more explicitly: those values are each at odds with either secularism or liberalism.

> unquantified assumptions about how the person was raised

I'm not entirely sure what an unquantified assumption is, but I clearly qualified that I was making a guess about the person. Making and confirming guesses about others based on what you know about them so far is normal behavior. I am by no means certain about the accuracy of my guess, but presented it as a starting point for further discussion.

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#312

Post by zarzavat » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:12 AM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #309

JJMcJ wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public school socialization. Humiliated by teachers. Bullied by some people. Small circle of friends. Adults as the enemy. All the homeschooled kids I've met seem pleasant, polite, comfortable around other kids and around adults. Of course this is Northern California so elsewhere the story may be different. Oh, and homeschooling is forbidden in Germany, under a 1938 law. 1938. Get it? Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, elbow…

I'm German and I'm glad it's forbidden, and not since 1938 but since 1919, and it has its roots not in the Nazi era but in the Prussian system and the European humanist tradition of education which emphasized that education is not just about acquisition of skills, but about civic education, teaching students not just to be pupils but to be democratic citizens and active participants in public life.

> teaching students not just to be pupils but to be democratic citizens and active participants in public life.

The subtext being that homeschooled children grow up into worse citizens than schooled children? What is the basis for that?

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#313

Post by xpe » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:17 AM UTC

anon291 wrote: post #265

xpe wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false claim of equivalence: very different things are happening. A liberal education does not 'shelter' students from religion -- instead, they are more likely to learn about it critically, perhaps in comparison with various faiths and histories. Personally I can say that I've learned a much greater depth about religion and spirituality outside of formal religious contacts. Perhaps something about the organ…

But that's my point... I went to a normal school. Even though it was religious, I wasn't exposed to any conservative ideas (religious != political conservatism). The school kinda went along with the general zeitgeist. Perhaps your experience is different. We did a cursory (and I mean extremely cursory) view of all world religions, as I think many schools may offer, but we never went in depth. But again, religion is n…

>> Personally I can say that I've learned a much greater depth about religion and spirituality outside of formal religious contacts.

> That's not really germaine. Did you learn it in a public school? Because if not, I think my point stands.

I took classes in history, philosophy, and ethics at a public university (one with considerable public funding). My public high school, on the other hand, had very limited capabilities or structure for teaching liberal arts well.

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#314

Post by xpe » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:21 AM UTC

OJFord wrote: post #250

xpe wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false claim of equivalence: very different things are happening. A liberal education does not 'shelter' students from religion -- instead, they are more likely to learn about it critically, perhaps in comparison with various faiths and histories. Personally I can say that I've learned a much greater depth about religion and spirituality outside of formal religious contacts. Perhaps something about the organ…

I'm very confused about the meaning of 'liberal' in this thread - it's quite overloaded anyway, but is it also like 'conservative' in having quite a different (or at least more specific) meaning in the US vs. UK (and especially vs. capital-C 'Conservative' party)? But also it seems to be assumed contradictorily to imply each secular and not?

> I'm very confused about the meaning of 'liberal' in this thread - it's quite overloaded anyway, but is it also like 'conservative' in having quite a different (or at least more specific) meaning in the US vs. UK (and especially vs. capital-C 'Conservative' party)?

Speaking for myself, when I say 'liberalism' I usually mean (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism)

"""Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, private property and a market economy."""

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#315

Post by xpe » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:22 AM UTC

wyager wrote: post #273

xpe wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false claim of equivalence: very different things are happening. A liberal education does not 'shelter' students from religion -- instead, they are more likely to learn about it critically, perhaps in comparison with various faiths and histories. Personally I can say that I've learned a much greater depth about religion and spirituality outside of formal religious contacts. Perhaps something about the organ…

> Perhaps something about the organizational setup of religious-based and funded programs American public schools are a religious-based and funded program; you just don't notice it because you don't even know what your own religion is.

> because you don't even know what your own religion is.

Please explain. To whom are you referring with "your"? Me, whom you don't know? Someone in general?

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#316

Post by dang » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:26 AM UTC

ComradePhil wrote: post #306

kennywinker wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an insane thing to say. Qanon level insanity. Trans activism is big pharma selling HRT to kids? First off, HRT is expensive, but not that expensive. Whatever made up narrative you have for them convincing kids to support trans people would be entirely too expensive to justify. Second, trans people have existed for MUCH MUCH longer than pharmaceutical companies have existed. Edit: oh, this poster thinks hitler…

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Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#317

Post by maroonblazer » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:34 AM UTC

camjohnson26 wrote: post #284

virissimo wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know whether people you've "had to deal with" were homeschooled or not? Might that method result in selection effects?

I doubt anyone I work with or meet knows I was homeschooled unless I specifically tell them, and it’s a pretty touchy subject because of the stereotypes people like the parent commenter have. Sounds like textbook survivorship bias, since the only homeschoolers you notice are the ones who are maladjusted. I know many people who were homeschooled and the range of outcomes varies, just like it does for public or private…

Some public school experiences can be great. Some homeschooling experiences can be great. Likewise each can be awful. We need more data.

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#318

Post by xpe » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:36 AM UTC

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #307

xpe wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, these two views are not even close to equivalent. Why? Liberalism and pluralism do not attempt to deny other ways of life or philosophies. (They may criticize them, but they do not claim to have absolute truth.) On the other hand, many dogmatic religions want to protect children from influences they cannot control or understand. Studying many different philosophies leads some to conclude relativism is correct. Bu…

> Liberalism and pluralism do not attempt to deny other ways of life or philosophies. Isn’t that what you just did?

>> Liberalism and pluralism do not attempt to deny other ways of life or philosophies.

> Isn’t that what you just did?

The key is understanding what I mean by "deny".

First, I'll define liberalism and pluralism as I'm using them (from Wikipedia):

> Pluralism as a political philosophy is the recognition and affirmation of diversity within a political body, which is seen to permit the peaceful coexistence of different interests, convictions, and lifestyles.

> Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, private property and a market economy.

I'm going to abbreviate liberalism as L and pluralism as P from here on.

With this said, you can see that both L and P recognize diversity and individual freedoms to a large degree. But this is not an unfettered, unbounded, nor uncritical viewpoint. Some worldviews cannot coexist together. For example, a philosophy claiming that one group is superior and therefore may inflict suffering on others is not showing respect for the ideas of P or L.

So, it is clear that neither P nor L are compatible with authoritarian philosophies.

If you want to say "P and L deny authoritarian philosophies" I suppose that is fair enough. But I don't think deny captures what is going on very well. P and L go to great length to allow many worldviews -- hopefully to celebrate them if possible and at least tolerate them to whatever extent possible. This is quite different than dogmatic religions, many of whom claim to have absolute truth.

If you want to see a more detailed articulation of why one can accept pluralism and liberalism without resorting to moral relativism, read "Through the Moral Maze" by Robert Kane. I'd expect there are other philosophers that hold similar views. His lecture series "The Quest for Meaning" is quite good -- roughly at the level of an introductory philosophy class at the US undergraduate level, more or less.

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#319

Post by Barrin92 » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:41 AM UTC

zarzavat wrote: post #312

Barrin92 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm German and I'm glad it's forbidden, and not since 1938 but since 1919, and it has its roots not in the Nazi era but in the Prussian system and the European humanist tradition of education which emphasized that education is not just about acquisition of skills, but about civic education, teaching students not just to be pupils but to be democratic citizens and active participants in public life.

> teaching students not just to be pupils but to be democratic citizens and active participants in public life. The subtext being that homeschooled children grow up into worse citizens than schooled children? What is the basis for that?

Depends on the motivation but I think there are some straight forward reasons. If the motivation is religious, then withdrawal is the explicit goal. The US say, has a long history of sort of apolitical, religiously secluded parallel communities that are deliberately parochial.

Another reason is that if you're not participating in common institutions you have no stake in them. If everyone goes to the same schools (in Germany the idea of the Volksschule), everyone has to participate in civic discourse about what to teach, how to fund education, and how to maintain equal standards. There is a common fabric and shared reality because everyone shares the same space.

That's obviously not to say that literally every homeschooled person is disinterested in public life, or vice versa but I think it's hard to see many other motivations for homeschooling other than to withdraw for one reason or another.

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#320

Post by motherfscker » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:42 AM UTC

I was homeschooled my entire life and to this day have terrible issues with socializing. I won’t say that homeschooling is the only cause of that, but it certainly did not help.

Secondly, the relationship between a student and teacher, much like an employee and employer, is a professional relationship. It is completely different from the close personal relationship you want with your parent/child. Inserting yourself as a teacher or “boss” completely throws off this dynamic.

Thirdly, my academic opportunities were severely limited as a result. I had no ap classes, no extracurriculars, no guidance counselor, etc. I didn’t have a teacher that challenged me to achieve more. My mom only has a bachelors, and did not have the knowledge to challenge me in subjects like math past algebra. I eventually took the SATs, the ACTs, and was able to go go university and get a BS in Computer Science. However, I was severely behind in math compared to my peers. I had only taken Algebra 2 in highschool, so in university I had to start with precalc instead of Calc 1. I had no AP credits that I could use to skip gen-eds. Perhaps my parents were just unprepared for homeschooling, but they were definitely worse than a teacher. Although I admit this last point might be specific to my experience.