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Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

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Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they cannot afford a good salary, then the business is a liability

This is a fun soundbite, but it's completely arbitrary and meaningless. You could just as easily and accurately come up with something along the lines of "if a union causes its employer financial distress, it is a liability".

>"if a union causes its employer financial distress, it is a liability".

Except that has been an actual feature of unions. Plenty of unions have agreed on work reduction and other cost abating ways to help a struggling company continue to function in times of distress. Workers plenty well understand that a failed company provides them none of the benefits of the union.

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#292

Note: this website often contains highly unreliable material and often publishes articles defending such things as the Berlin Wall.

On HN, we go by article quality, not site quality:

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

This is just a general answer—I haven't looked at this particular article.

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, but why is it that on every post critical of Amazon there's a bunch of freshly-made accounts just for the purpose of spreading fud?

Part of this can be explained by some long-established accounts that used to frequently defend American companies being banned, e.g. CryptoPunk [1], for being too incendiary. In any case, I'd suggest trying to quantify the number of new accounts taking the pro-market-freedom side, and the number taking the pro-government-intervention side, to see if the data bears out your assumptions. [1] https://news.ycombinator.co…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#294
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are made up of workers and their combined labor. OPEC is not. This is definitional.

OPEC is made up of oil producing countries and their combined output. They are extremely similar except that one deals in labor, and the other in petrochemicals.

Yeah, let’s mix up the definition of a legal person and an actual person.

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#295
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon as a whole is profitable, but AWS subsidizes the rest. Amazon retail loses money because it's constantly undercutting competitors, and investing heavily in further CapEx to reduce costs. If they had to pay living wages to those employees, they would stop being able to undercut every other business.

Without Bezos, when will AWS be spun off? It's a stock payoff for execs waiting to happen, and the execs can only turn a blind eye to that for so long.

Well, if Amazon spun off AWS they would have no choice but to treat all the retail-side issues (counterfeit goods, BS reviews, garbage search results, shoddy delivery subcontracts, facilitating the sale of stolen merchandise, warehouse working conditions) as actually worthy of Day 1 focus. Are they ready to do that? Unfortunately it's not as glamorous as building rocket ships, buying news companies or building web service infrastructure...

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#296
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Aren't unions the reason we have a number of worker protections and standards, including the 40 hour work week?

Yes, I mentioned exactly that.

However, first, many workplace safety rules were promulgated by govt commissions formed in response to specific events. They could be established via a one-time campaign, without a permanent institution like unions... just like many other safety and other standards - we don't have an all-encompassing seatbelt-union or anti-smoking union or low-car-exhaust union, just one-time campaign followed by a pointed intervention. Even such easier-to-violate, more nebulous policies as 40-hour work week generally persisted, and spread around the world, despite decline in unionization.

Additionally, salary and working conditions for many occupations (e.g. software) are great based purely on market forces, without unions. It's not a given that most of the good impact of unions wouldn't have happened without them.

But again, sure, I did grant some credit to unions for that. However, one may also grant nukes some credit in saving many lives by ending WWII early, and yet not be pro-nuke.

Why do you choose to judge unions on that one episode, and not many of their negative impacts?

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't unions the reason we have a number of worker protections and standards, including the 40 hour work week?

Yes, the comment you are replying to is complete nonsense.

Complete nonsense? I provided several well known facts about unions, but instead of refuting them or providing some counter it was hidden away by union groupies.

Sure, let me post them again with links to some sources.

1) Union racism - I thought there was even a congressional testimony by a union leader against allowing Blacks moving to the North to take jobs, but I cannot find it now. However, while I thought it was a 1950-ies problem - [1, including describing a system that goes beyond personal prejudice; etc.], while researching, I found it may STILL be a problem! [2]

2) Union-mafia connections [3, etc. - well known]

3) Anti-immigration stance of unions [4], incl. e.g. famously Cesar Chavez using union power to help deport undocumented immigrants via both law and with violence [5]

4) UAW role in destruction of American auto industry. This one is really typical, the union was milking a recently over-concentrated auto industry when the rest of the world had no auto industry to speak of. At the first sight of competition the whole thing collapsed. [6]

5) Unions preventing and protesting automation of ports, and successfully preventing the govt funding of it during a supply crunch [7] [8]

6) Generalized corruption. Too many small examples, here's a recent one in UAW [9]

7) Featherbedding. Similarly, many examples, some I know personally, NY infrastructure is the most prominent [10]

8) AMA limiting residency spots, med school accreditation, hospital certificates of need, etc. => limiting physicians per capital, producing more expensive healthcare.

9) Police unions... need I say more?

With a cursory search you can find much more in each category, and probably more categories too.

Why would you expect anything else? Think about a union from the first principles, it's as if someone wanted to make a basket case for every possible misaligned incentive.

* Unions have ultimate, NIMBY-like rent-seeking incentive, based on restriction and exclusion of other labor (as demonstrated above, up to racism and anti-immigrant violence when viable - but also via certification beyond any practical necessity, etc.). In a market labor would get wages it deserves. Union incentive is to milk a company for as much extra as it can instead AND ALSO to exclude other labor.

The bet is that even if the company dies, workers will just go to the next one. Or the company can continue as a zombie, with union maneuvering to get as much of the spoils as possible. Sometimes it doesn't work, as with Detroit where it didn't work and industry went abroad; notably, the key union achievements were at the time where the "abroad" was undeveloped and/or bombed out.

Public sector unions are an ultimate racket here, as public sector cannot really go under (I hope) so it can be rent-seeked-from forever.

* They have nothing to gain from progress or innovation that may eliminate jobs or make them more efficient (hence fighting port automation, or at least making automation useless by featherbedding like in NYC).

* They generally are monopolistic, but instead of being broken up/regulated/at least frowned upon like many monopolistic companies, their monopolies and/or coordination with each other is encourage.

* If those weren't enough, long-term, they have basically unaccountable leaders operating over a base of people who, rightfully, are not very engaged in the union politics. Perfect breeding ground for corruption, especially combined with the above two - you cannot run most companies with incompetents and mafia members, you will run them into the ground; but you can easily run a union.

Aside from gangs/mobs/cartels/armies/etc., unions are truly the most harmful institution even created by man. If I wanted to invent an institution with worse incentives from scratch I couldn't have come up with anything so bad.

[1] https://www.commentary.org/articles/herbert-hill/labor-union... [2] https://ssir.org/articles/entry/union_constructions_racial_e... [3] https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ocgs/infiltrated-labor-unio... [4] https://www.npr.org/2013/02/05/171175054/how-the-labor-movem... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Chavez#cite_ref-FOOTNOTE... [6] https://cei.org/blog/empire-of-rust-how-the-uaw-killed-detro... [7] https://www.porttechnology.org/news/west-coast-ports-and-uni... [8] https://reason.com/2021/11/09/americas-ports-need-more-robot... [9] https://www.denverpost.com/2021/06/10/united-auto-workers-ga... [10] https://tunnelingonline.com/why-tunnels-in-the-us-cost-much-....

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I lived in South America many people took exception to referring to US citizens as 'Americans'. For most of SA, 'American' can refer to something of the American continents. Even more interesting, the middle school geography that I took taught that there was only one American continent. So by that standard Canadians are 'American'. But yeah, as someone who now lives in Canada: don't ever think that Canada is the…

The difference in defining continents is where the confusion mainly arises. Canadians are "North Americans," unless you are in Europe, then they are just "Americans." So what are people who live in the USA? United Statesians? Americans-not-from-Canada-Mexico-or-anywhere-south-of-that?

Here in the UK, saying someone is "American" generally means they're from the USA. However, many of us have trouble distinguishing between Canadian and American accents (except of course French Canadian). That often leads to confusing Canadians with Americans.

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#299
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the comment you are replying to is complete nonsense.

Complete nonsense? I provided several well known facts about unions, but instead of refuting them or providing some counter it was hidden away by union groupies. Sure, let me post them again with links to some sources. 1) Union racism - I thought there was even a congressional testimony by a union leader against allowing Blacks moving to the North to take jobs, but I cannot find it now. However, while I thought it wa…

US != the world.

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#300
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complete nonsense? I provided several well known facts about unions, but instead of refuting them or providing some counter it was hidden away by union groupies. Sure, let me post them again with links to some sources. 1) Union racism - I thought there was even a congressional testimony by a union leader against allowing Blacks moving to the North to take jobs, but I cannot find it now. However, while I thought it wa…

US != the world.

The original post is about the US unions; plurality if not majority of the achievements of union activists were originally in the US, too.
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