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Profanity Doesn't Work

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Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#51

Post by Umofomia »

gliese1337 wrote: post #37
sams99 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are always offended for "other" people, I would be curious to hear the thoughts of a person who is truly offended by the word fuck. Does it have some magic powers that cause it to fire off a pain circuit in mutant brains?

It has well-understood powers to fire off pain circuits in perfectly normal brains. Stephen Pinker gave a talk on the subject at Google a few years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBpetDxIEMU Swear words are swear words because they actually are processed differently in your brain than regular propositional speech is. They're the linguistic counterpart of the emotional signals used by other social animals. The di…

For a more detailed explanation (and if you don't want to figure out where in the video he talks about it), Pinker wrote an article too: http://www.scribd.com/doc/389762/Steven-Pinker-What-the-Fuck...

(I believe this is just an excerpt from his book, The Stuff of Thought, but it's been a while since I've read the book so I don't remember.)

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#52

Post by molbioguy »

Society works on a handshake; there is no ultimate moral arbiter. So when the vast majority agree that certain words are no longer offensive, then it's OK to use them without concern. However, as long as that isn't the case (and it certainly is not the case in general in most societies at this time) you have to consider more than just your own personal views on profanity. If you are offending a portion of your audience, then it's fair to say that you're being disrespectful to hat portion of the audience. Most people I know use profanity (sparingly) with their peers (age-wise), very rarely with their parents, and almost never with their grandparents or young children. I think that reflects a knowledge of their audience and a respect for varying levels of tolerance to profanity. I find it troubling when I encounter people that lack that level of respect for others, and shameful when I'm guilty of it myself. Broadcasting something on a very public medium like the internet means you can't possibly predict your audience and therefore can't really determine whether profanity will be offensive or not. So why not refrain.

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#53

Post by tensor »

cleverjake wrote: post #50

This is totally a matter of culture. My father worked for a (US) national company that actually required etiquette training for their representatives from the northeast, because they were so much more prone to swearing in casual conversation, that it would cause others to be drawn aback and brought out of the conversation. Not to mention when you get to international differences. My australian exchange student in hig…

But regardless, I thought one of the biggest points of hacker news was the ability to grok out meaning of news and opinions, and not debate the effectiveness of its communication.

I think it's quite the opposite. The community has grown around an appreciation for effectively communicating and discussing ideas. This is why comments with little information and inflammatory comments are typically down voted.

In terms of business and startups, there are numerous articles posted here that discuss nothing but communication. How do you communicate with users? How do you work well in teams? How can you get your message across clearly and effectively to prospective customers?

Communication is just as vital as technical skill.

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#55

Post by aredington »

There are individuals who care more about fundamentally good ideas than about leveraging them for profit. We aren't sufficiently offended by profanity to consider it a net negative value in presentations.

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#56

Post by semanticist »

dorian-graph wrote: post #28

It is a poor man who relies upon swearing to have an impact upon his readers or listeners. I view it similar to "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Swearing may get the attention of people though it seems like a quick fix that won't last. You know what else gets people's attention? Slapping them. :P What is more lasting is effective teaching skills and telling stories well and to do these well it requir…

Don't assume that everywhere that speaks English has the same monoculture. A very strong aversion to swearing is, as far as I can tell, specifically American.

I'm Scottish and I swear more or less continuously, using words that are considered to be the 'most offensive'. This isn't 'trying hard', it's simply a cultural artefact, a side-effect of growing up working class in a particular place in the world.

This kind of reaction to swearing is really just parochial nonsense.

(On the other hand, if you do have a character trait that some people consider a flaw, you might as well go out of your way to own it, and so: http://theswearingrubyist.com/ )

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#58

Post by socksy »

scheff wrote: post #44
danilocampos wrote: post #25

"The difference between the almost right word & the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning." - Mark Twain There are occasions where only the word fuck will do. They're less common than what the habitually profane might guess (and I regrettably count myself among that group). Still – there is a talent to swearing. Part of it is delivery. Part of it is timin…

In support of what you're saying - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_g-EOWoads

In the vein of intelligent use of swearing with a scottish accent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9arSotadmY

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#59

Post by AznHisoka »

I hope the guys who write the original article don't follow this guy's advice. I love people who don't give a shit what other people think, and don't have to watch what they say or do 24/7 in fear. That's freedom.

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#60

Post by tensor »

techshit wrote: post #41

Profanity is popular in the tech community because it conveys that we don't give a fuck about offending people as we challenge existing norms. People are going to object to that; if they're not offended, we're not doing a good enough job.

My dislike of swearing in the tech community has little to do with challenging norms or offending people. Although it's certainly crass, if you want to have such a personality you are welcome to.

The problem with it is that it dilutes meaning and hinders communication. Let's take the article being discussed. What exactly is shit work? Is it unnecessary work? Is it unpleasant work? Perhaps it's work for which you are poorly compensated? Who knows! Sure, you can read the article to find out.

It turns out in this case it meant unnecessary work. The author decided it might have more impact to call it shit work, however. Why? Not because he doesn't care about offending people. Rather the opposite. He knows the word carries extra baggage with it. He knows it invokes ideas of "dirty" "bad" "offensive" among others. So he uses it for impact. He's not alone in doing this.

Which brings me to the second problem with it. Not only is it not a very clear way of communicating, but when everybody does it, you end up with entire communities continually making hyperbolic statements. Everyone wants to stand out and be heard, so everybody is now yelling. A product is not just poorly implemented, or rough around the edges, it's either the best or it's complete shit. This is not effective communication as far as I am concerned.

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